[00:06] Show open announcer: It's the Kim Monson Show, analyzing the most important stories.
[00:11] Show open voice clips: That seems to me like government is establishing a religion.
[00:16] Show open announcer: The latest in politics and world affairs.
[00:20] Show open voice clips: If you give people rights, women's rights, gay rights, whatever, there can't be equal rights if there are special rights.
[00:27] Show open announcer: Today's current opinions and ideas.
[00:31] Show open voice clips: Surveys show that people still really prefer freedom over government force.
[00:36] Show open announcer: Is it freedom or is it force?
[00:39] Show open announcer: Let's have a conversation.
[00:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome to the Kim Monson Show.
[00:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I am Dr. Jill Vecchio.
[00:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I am guest hosting the show today.
[00:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Kim is on, she's actually doing some charity work in another state, which is cool.
[00:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: This woman never ever gives up, right?
[00:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I'm here to have a conversation with you guys and let's have some fun.
[01:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you all for listening.
[01:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Each of you are treasured and valued and have a purpose.
[01:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Today, strive for excellence.
[01:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Take care of your heart, your soul, your mind, and your body.
[01:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We were made for this moment in history.
[01:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I think Kim Monson is the perfect example of somebody who was made for exactly this time.
[01:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Don't you think, Producer Joe?
[01:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She does such good work.
[01:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And believe me, folks, you have no idea how hard this woman works.
[01:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I have so much respect for her, and I've known her for ages.
[01:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So thank you, Producer Joe and the team for your good work.
[01:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And Kim's website is Kim Monson, and that's K-I-M-M-O-N-S-O-N.com.
[01:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Sign up for the notification.
[01:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Kim is doing a voter's guide.
[01:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She does a wonderful voter's guide every week.
[01:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: uh, every cycle, every voting cycle, election cycle.
[02:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you know, they send out that blue book, but that is really very biased folks.
[02:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So Kim does an excellent job with her voters guide.
[02:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: My husband and I use that and we tell everybody to use it.
[02:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We, we forward her email of the voters guide to so many friends cause they're like, who do I vote for?
[02:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Um,
[02:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So when her voter's guide is going to be ready soon, it's called Election 2026 and Ballot Issues, the Kim Monson Show.
[02:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So join the community.
[02:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can go to her website, kimmonson.com.
[02:39] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And yes, yes, that's her email is Kim at Kim Monson dot com.
[02:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I'm sorry, her email is Kim at Kim Monson, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com.
[02:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But you can also go to her website, the Kim Monson show dot com and sign up for that to receive that newsletter by email.
[03:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see.
[03:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So she also has on her community, she has a great community on her website as well.
[03:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And Allen Thomas's class on the Federalist Papers is in session this Thursday.
[03:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So tune in for that.
[03:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're supposed to be absolutely wonderful.
[03:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see.
[03:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you to the Harris family for their diamond sponsorship of the show.
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[03:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Today's word for the day is, are you ready, Producer Joe?
[03:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Okay, it's volte-face.
[03:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I first heard this on Downton Abbey, by the way, so I had to look it up.
[04:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Volte-face.
[04:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's V as in Victor, O-L-T-E, and then it has a hyphen, and then it's F-A-C-E like face.
[04:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Volte-face.
[04:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's a noun, and it's chiefly kind of a formal British term, but it does sound French, right?
[04:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it is kind of the, by the way of French from Italian, Volta-Face, or Volta-Face, a combination of
[04:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: V-O-L-T-A-R-E, Voltaire, or Voltare, meaning to turn, and facia, face, to turn face.
[04:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's existed as an English noun since at least 1819.
[04:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The corresponding English phrase, about face, right, military, about face?
[04:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: saw use in a number of forms in the decades before that, including military commands such as right about face, that is to turn 180 degrees to the right so as to face in the opposite direction.
[04:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The standalone noun about face, let's see here, is about as old as volte-face.
[05:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see.
[05:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The about face didn't appear in print as a figurative noun meaning a reversal of attitude, behavior, or point of view until the mid-1800s.
[05:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So it's really what the term volte-face means is you've changed your, you've completely reversed your opinion or your attitude or point of view.
[05:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see here.
[05:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So Volte-face is kind of a cool term to just say, you've changed your position 180 degrees, what's going on?
[05:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So kind of elegant.
[05:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see, quote of the day, I'm gonna wait until segment three for the quote of the day, because that quote is going to apply to our second half.
[05:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I'm gonna keep you in suspense about that.
[05:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Not really, it's not too suspenseful.
[05:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we have a couple of articles, and I want Producer Joe's opinion on this one.
[06:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I don't know if everybody heard about this, but President Trump announced a ban on three news outlets on September 18th.
[06:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They were banned from the White House press room, apparently, and from the White House in general.
[06:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: No press passes.
[06:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The three news outlets are huge.
[06:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Politico, CNN, and MS Now.
[06:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right?
[06:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The new MS Now.
[06:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So MS Now reporter Kayla Gardner, CNN reporter Betsy Klein, and political reporter Cheyenne Haslett were all denied entry to the White House and had their credentials confiscated.
[06:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: following President Trump's ban on CNN, MSNOW, and Politico starting on September 19th, 2026.
[06:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: He announced it on Truth Social on September 18th that he was going to ban them as a result of their constant reporting of fake news.
[07:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The president said media outlets shouldn't be able to constantly write or report fiction and lies when they're covering the president of the United States, the Trump administration, or the United States of America.
[07:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Are there fake news media outlets to follow?
[07:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Ah, so he's not done yet.
[07:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Hmm, this is interesting.
[07:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And, you know, it's hard to know how to think about this because we know that past administrations have blocked Fox News, right?
[07:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, didn't Fox News, was it Obama and Biden?
[07:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Either they...
[07:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: were blocked or they just never asked them any questions.
[07:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They were allowed in but they weren't allowed to ask any questions.
[07:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So this is just kind of taking it an extra step though to not even give them access.
[07:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see, the reporter's badges were taken away from them by security.
[08:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And they're all obviously claiming First Amendment rights.
[08:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it's to what extent?
[08:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, everybody has a right to lie.
[08:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's just the repercussions of your reporting that make a difference, right?
[08:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Producer Joe, what do you think?
[08:14] Producer Joe: I think it's about time because the weaponization of the media has been such a tremendous problem in my personal opinion.
[08:28] Producer Joe: see repercussions is a really big deal to me.
[08:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, it's interesting because they, they, the problem with the reporting and it, and it goes both ways on both sides.
[08:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Everybody's spinning stuff and, and they take little sound clips.
[08:42] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Everybody does it.
[08:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And really this has been done for since the, since newspapers and media started to exist in mankind, right?
[08:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: There are, there's always been some agenda and bad reporting that,
[08:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But you think when they report as if they are giving you inside information that only they had access to from being a White House press correspondent or White House correspondent, that they somehow are privy to inside knowledge and that's what they're giving you so you believe what they tell you is true inside knowledge.
[09:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Does that make sense?
[09:23] Producer Joe: Yeah, it does, and my issue with the weaponization is it's a deal between the media and the politician, and I don't like that.
[09:33] Producer Joe: That's not what the role of government is for.
[09:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, and the role of the press is supposed to be to hold the government in check, not to manipulate the public to believe a certain agenda or lies about the president.
[09:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's difficult because it's First Amendment.
[09:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: At the same time, these reporters can contact somebody else.
[09:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They don't have to be in the West Wing or in the White House.
[09:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Are their personal First Amendment rights being violated?
[10:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: What about ours?
[10:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We're not allowed in there, right?
[10:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I'm not allowed in there.
[10:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: When Kim and Molly and I had our radio show, we went to the, you know, we went to, what, we were in Washington and visited senators and congressmen and got a tour of the Congress, and that was very cool.
[10:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But we weren't allowed to, and there was a press conference going on that day, and we were in the media, you know, we had a radio show on political issues.
[10:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We weren't allowed in there.
[10:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So it's kind of like, well, what makes you guys so special that your First Amendment rights are violated by him doing this, but mine aren't?
[10:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And Kim's aren't.
[10:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Kim can't go into the White House press room.
[10:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She doesn't have the credentials, right?
[10:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Exactly.
[10:52] Producer Joe: Kim always says if everybody has special rights, or if you give everybody special exceptions, then our freedoms go out the door with that.
[11:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, yeah.
[11:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Now, I think this is interesting.
[11:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: War Secretary Pete Hegseth,
[11:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: said, we are grateful these outlets already chose to self-deport from the Pentagon.
[11:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They endangered our troops with false stories, leaks, and traffic and fictionalized about the President, our warrior, and their missions.
[11:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And they did do that, so they should have been booted out for that.
[11:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Now, there's one other article.
[11:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Did you have anything else to say about that, Joe?
[11:27] Producer Joe: I'm just glad to see something is happening.
[11:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, well, yeah, we'll see what happens with it.
[11:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I'm sure there was probably going to be some kind of a lawsuit or something, I imagine.
[11:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we will see what happens.
[11:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Now the, one more article and oh, this is interesting.
[11:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And our next guest in the next segment is gonna be commenting about this and I can't wait to talk to him.
[11:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But you know, he's mostly gonna tell us, I wanna hear his comments.
[11:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Anyway, so Wired Magazine, and I had heard about this on like X.
[12:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Somebody said, here's a picture of 3D printed meat.
[12:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we're going to talk about 3D printed meat when we come back.
[12:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Okay.
[12:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's see here.
[12:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We have fun conversations like this.
[12:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thanks to great sponsors like Roger Mangan.
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[14:03] Kim Monson Show sponsorship promo announcer: Kim would love to talk with you.
[14:05] Kim Monson Show sponsorship promo announcer: Again, that's kim at kimmonson.com.
[14:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome back.
[14:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I'm Dr. Jill Vecchio and I'm filling in for Kim Monson today.
[14:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Sign up to be notified when Kim's voter guide is ready.
[14:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's probably the most thorough voter's guide in Colorado.
[14:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It absolutely is.
[14:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We use it all the time.
[14:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Join the community that she has on her website.
[14:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's a place to connect, converse, and contemplate about the things happening in our communities.
[14:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So you can sign up for the email of the guide at Kim's website, KimMonsonShow.com.
[14:42] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can email Kim at KimMonson, M-O-N-S-O-N.com.
[14:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you for contributing to support Kim's independent voice and the exercise of our right to freedom of speech.
[14:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We were just talking about that.
[14:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Through all of Kim's work with veterans, she's honored to highlight the USMC Memorial Foundation and all they're doing to raise the money to remodel the official USMC Memorial, which is located right here in Golden, Colorado at 6th and Colfax.
[15:10] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Paula Sarlls is the president of the foundation.
[15:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She's a Marine veteran and a Gold Star wife.
[15:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Paula and her team are working diligently to make the remodel a reality.
[15:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can help by donating...
[15:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: at usmcmemorialfoundation.org.
[15:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's O-R-G.
[15:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's usmcmemorialfoundation.org.
[15:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we have a great guest coming on, and I love his place.
[15:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's Elizabeth Locker Plant.
[15:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We're in the process of getting Justin Hundley on the phone.
[15:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: He's here.
[15:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So Justin, welcome to the program.
[15:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Doing well.
[15:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Doing well.
[15:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I wanted to introduce this weird thing.
[15:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: On X, I saw some blurb about, you know, some little video.
[15:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Oh, my gosh, here's 3D printed meat.
[16:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I'm like, huh?
[16:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then I looked online.
[16:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I'm like, oh, well, is this some kind of crazy conspiracy thing?
[16:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: There were so many articles on 3D printed steaks and meat and fish.
[16:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was bizarre.
[16:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wired Magazine, you know, it's like a techie blog.
[16:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: computer geeky magazine, but it's very well respected, right?
[16:21] Justin Hundley: And they're doing a lot of, they're doing a lot of strange stuff.
[16:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[16:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[16:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So they did an article on this and, and some Israeli company called Steakholder, which is kind of cute.
[16:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's S T E A K holder, H O L D E R instead of like the stakeholder that you think about in politics.
[16:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But Steakholder Foods is an Israeli company that sent him this 3D printed meats and steaks and burgers and fish.
[16:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And he absolutely said it was the worst stuff in the world.
[16:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It fell apart.
[16:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You couldn't cook it.
[16:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I can't imagine even wanting to put anything like that into my body that came from a printer.
[17:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right?
[17:06] Justin Hundley: I mean, they're doing some strange things with proteins these days, and that's definitely one of them.
[17:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[17:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wow.
[17:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But they can make all of this.
[17:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They can make piles of it very quickly.
[17:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They had specialized machines for this.
[17:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And 3D printing is still kind of an enigma to me, but wow.
[17:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I thought I'd have somebody on to talk about real meat.
[17:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[17:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So can you, because I grew up on a farm and we had cattle, and so we always had locker meat, and it was really great to be able to pick exactly what cuts you want, how you want it aged and everything.
[17:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Can you talk a little bit about some of the amazing things you can do?
[17:57] Justin Hundley: with the things that you're talking about, I mean, we have seen a surge in people coming kind of again, uh, COVID was the first one.
[18:05] Justin Hundley: And then this is kind of the second wave of it that, uh, again, people are starting to really get, um, I don't know about more concern, but they're, they're really paying attention to where they're getting, um, meat from.
[18:20] Justin Hundley: So they're, they're looking more for locally raised, um, good qualities,
[18:31] Justin Hundley: But, yeah, as far as getting halves and wholes, stuff like that, and getting it cut the way you want it, I mean, essentially it's a pretty simple process.
[18:41] Justin Hundley: And you can literally just call a local butcher shop up, a locker plant, if you will, and get the process started.
[18:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, I went on your website and I was like, what kind of package can I get?
[19:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it's like, well, I don't really see any packages.
[19:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's that, I mean, you do have some where you can get like, you know, a quarter cow or an eighth of a critter or something like that for a certain price per pound or whatever.
[19:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But really, it is so specifically individualized, right?
[19:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[19:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That is so neat.
[19:25] Justin Hundley: So you can pick, you know, down to the thickness of the steaks.
[19:28] Justin Hundley: And, you know, one of the big things now is people are actually starting to want to put some of the, the organ meat into their ground products.
[19:40] Justin Hundley: And so they're grinding some liver and some heart inside of that to,
[19:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[19:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I lived on that in medical school.
[19:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was 36 cents a pound.
[19:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was one of my staples.
[19:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It is.
[19:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's really good for you.
[19:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And if it's done right, it's actually pretty, I liked it.
[19:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was pretty tasty.
[20:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And one of the things, because I've been to Elizabeth Locker and you're in downtown Elizabeth, it is a cool place, folks.
[20:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: There are sausages and jerkies.
[20:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Your place is like packed and I just want to gobble everything up.
[20:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It is such an interesting place to just go in and walk around.
[20:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And the folks are so friendly and helpful.
[20:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So hats off.
[20:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You've done a really neat job with that place.
[20:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's fun.
[20:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[20:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Now, can you tell people what are some of the differences between the meat that they'll get at your place and what they buy at the grocery store or even at Costco?
[20:45] Justin Hundley: Well, I mean, you know, with our place for sure, everything's done at one facility, one site.
[20:58] Justin Hundley: And then we do dry aging of the animal there, which dry aging is something that you're really not going to see really.
[21:08] Justin Hundley: I mean, you can find it a little bit here and there, but the big packing houses, they don't do that.
[21:13] Justin Hundley: Generally, from the time that animal is harvested to the time it's cut and put into a bag is generally normal.
[21:24] Justin Hundley: And dry aging is a very important thing because it helps with tenderness.
[21:27] Justin Hundley: It helps with just natural flavors of the meat coming out.
[21:35] Justin Hundley: And then also we have control of what the animal eats.
[21:39] Justin Hundley: um, to a point as far as that goes and what, what it brings in.
[21:44] Justin Hundley: We don't use any steroids, no hormones, um, no antibiotics or anything like that as far as that goes.
[21:52] Justin Hundley: Um, and I literally can, can go out and, you know, and drive 16 miles to the Northeast in my locker plant and I can see the animals, you know, I can actually find out where they are and what they're doing.
[22:07] Justin Hundley: So that's the biggest one is we're just a smaller operation, and like I say, we have total control from start to finish.
[22:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, and when you talk about the dry aging, because we always had critters butchered, and my dad was always very particular, and he raised cattle, and some of his actually went to Omaha Steaks.
[22:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you always lose money on that deal as a rancher.
[22:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But anyway, but he was all proud that some of his were accepted by Omaha Steaks.
[22:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But he was always very particular.
[22:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: How long do you hang your meat?
[22:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: How long?
[22:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Because the longer you...
[22:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That process of what you called the dry aging, and I won't go into detail about it.
[22:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: If you want to, that would be great, but some people may find it a little, you know, they're unexpected.
[22:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But it tenderizes the meat, and it makes such a difference.
[22:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's when you don't...
[23:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: that's why you pay so much for steaks at Del Frisco's or whatever.
[23:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And as opposed to what you're going to pay at Costco to a large extent, cause they really don't go through that process.
[23:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Do any of the, does Costco meat go through any additional stuff?
[23:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They have a good reputation for their beef.
[23:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's why I ask.
[23:20] Justin Hundley: And Costco actually, actually has pretty good beef.
[23:25] Justin Hundley: As far as I know now, I don't know that they may have some program that they run some through every once in a while, but they don't do a dry-aged program.
[23:37] Justin Hundley: And dry aging is essentially, it does a lot of things, in my opinion.
[23:43] Justin Hundley: Now, there's been some people that say that wet aging does good as well.
[23:48] Justin Hundley: And wet aging is just essentially being in the bag and aging in the bag.
[23:55] Justin Hundley: They have said in the past that there's some tenderization process to that as well.
[24:05] Justin Hundley: But as far as dry aging is concerned, we age a minimum of 10 days.
[24:20] Justin Hundley: So, um, like you would probably know more than I know about the body.
[24:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, correct.
[24:29] Justin Hundley: So yeah, so we, the animal, the leaf are probably the same way.
[24:34] Justin Hundley: Um, so it allows the water to, to leave the body, leaving a beefier flavor.
[24:40] Justin Hundley: And then, then with some enzymes and the right conditions, um, natural enzymes,
[24:46] Justin Hundley: it does actually start to break down some of the muscle fibers.
[24:59] Justin Hundley: And then when you go out there around 35 to 45 days age, it will change the fat, the way the fat looks.
[25:15] Justin Hundley: And it'll also change a little bit of – and it will change the flavor extremely of the beef.
[25:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, it's to the point where it just melts in your mouth sometimes.
[25:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And, yes, now we have about – we get close to one minute left, and I want you to kind of plug Elizabeth Locker, tell people how to reach you and that sort of thing.
[25:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The –
[25:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The amazing thing is we're so used to now this grocery store meat.
[25:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: When you taste stuff that is done the way that you're describing, it's a totally different experience.
[25:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Even ground beef tastes different, don't you think?
[26:00] Justin Hundley: We have customers that have been there for quite a few years.
[26:06] Justin Hundley: We've had new customers that say that they will only buy meat from us right now.
[26:10] Justin Hundley: ElizabethLocker.com is our website, or you guys can call us and come see us.
[26:18] Justin Hundley: We have everything that I've spoken about today, including the
[26:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's special stuff.
[26:29] Justin Hundley: If you guys want to come try that, we'd love to see you.
[26:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yep, that is special stuff.
[26:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, thank you so much, Justin, for joining us.
[26:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I've got to get down there.
[26:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We just have to make room in our deep freeze for some really great beef.
[26:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we're going to be coming to see you.
[26:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thanks, Justin.
[26:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Take care.
[26:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Are we ready to go to break?
[26:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yay.
[26:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Okay.
[26:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We have wonderful sponsors like Karen Levine, and she's going to help us get right down to that locker room.
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[30:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So now I'm going to give the quote that I was waiting from the first segment.
[30:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And this next topic I think is going to be something really interesting to people because it's not something they know very much about, but it's really becoming very, very popular.
[30:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And
[30:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: really, really useful on a profound level for a lot of people.
[30:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So this quote is from Allan Hamilton.
[31:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I call my horses divine mirrors.
[31:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They reflect back the emotions you put in.
[31:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: If you put in love and respect and kindness and curiosity, the horse will return that, and even more than that.
[31:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we have with us today Danielle Bartos, who is a trainer.
[31:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She's a counselor, a therapist, and also she runs, and she's the founder of,
[31:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The art of the, of rescue art of rescue, which is a really, I love Danielle.
[31:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome to the show, but I love so much the way that you chose to, uh, term that the art of rescue, because it means several different things in your organization.
[31:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Doesn't it?
[31:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Danielle.
[31:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome.
[31:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, yeah.
[32:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I have horses, and you and I met through friends that we've, you know, a lot of friends that I've had for many, many years.
[32:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're all horse people.
[32:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's all girls and horses, and the husbands that have to put up with that.
[32:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So I met you then, and I was so impressed.
[32:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You have a horse rescue operation, and you combine that with a horse...
[32:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: with an equine therapy organization, which is absolutely brilliant.
[32:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So you're rescuing horses and you're using horses to rescue people.
[32:39] Danielle Bartos: where I got to that, and I also have a background in art, so that also comes into the name, which is really fun.
[32:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, you have so many different credentials and so many different interests, and I love talking to people like that.
[32:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So first, let's talk about, can you describe the, because I worked at a horse rescue for a while, and that got me back into horses,
[33:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: There are so many horses out there, old horses or their owners die or they have trouble with them or they can't pay for them because horses can be very expensive.
[33:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So there are a lot of horses that are given up.
[33:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I got involved with a rescue because it was here in town because the that article came out that said that estrogen causes breast cancer.
[33:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And the estrogen hormone replacement came from pregnant mare urine.
[33:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So they collected the urine of pregnant horses.
[33:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So these horses were in Canada mostly, but they had been in the U.S., but mostly in Canada.
[33:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And all of a sudden that market dropped out.
[33:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So all of these horses who had horribly been capped,
[33:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: pregnant over and over and over again, collecting their urine for the estrogen hormone replacement market.
[33:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I still support hormone replacement, but that was a horrible way to do it.
[33:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: These poor horses had been horribly treated, constantly pregnant.
[33:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Anyway, so they were put on slaughter.
[34:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So they were sent out to the slaughter market.
[34:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And this wonderful guy here in town started buying up pregnant mares.
[34:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we'd always have babies and all that.
[34:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I actually delivered a foal.
[34:10] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was very cool.
[34:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Anyway, but it was so sad that all of these horses, I mean, he could only get so many.
[34:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That ended up at these rescues and you're constantly trying to pay vet bills and hay and medicine and all this stuff.
[34:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So can you talk about how you approach the horse rescue and kind of help people to understand what these horses have in need?
[34:40] Danielle Bartos: Fun fact, my horse that I had through my childhood up until a couple of years ago, he was actually one of those babies from Canada.
[34:56] Danielle Bartos: He actually was my inspiration to getting into not only horse rescue, but equine therapy, because as he got older and I loved him to death as we do our horses, I was like, what is he going to do for his next career?
[35:20] Danielle Bartos: You know, our dogs and cats and small animals that can go into a smaller space, they're huge animals.
[35:31] Danielle Bartos: So the expenses are a lot more for any health needs that they have.
[35:37] Danielle Bartos: And then if they have behavioral issues, which is what My Rescue really focuses on,
[35:43] Danielle Bartos: it's difficult because there's not a lot of people who want to handle something that has, you know, a horse with trauma, a horse that has behavioral issues that has been given up by owners.
[35:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That can kill you anytime they want.
[36:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[36:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Absolutely.
[36:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's intimidating.
[36:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then you don't, you can't have just one.
[36:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You gotta have at least two.
[36:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You do.
[36:20] Danielle Bartos: And especially when we first get in horses, a lot of times there is a lot of upfront costs.
[36:26] Danielle Bartos: to make sure that these horses are coming back from whatever neglect that they endured in their previous life.
[36:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[36:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: A lot of them are starved or have chronic health conditions and good food.
[36:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then also you want to make sure that whatever horse comes in doesn't make everybody sick.
[36:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[36:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They don't have any diseases or something that can infect the entire herd.
[36:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then, you know, so you have to also...
[36:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: rehabilitate those horses and get them to get along with one another.
[36:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Cause now they're entering a whole new herd and then they've got this whole dynamic.
[37:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So it's like this constant orphanage kind of arrangement.
[37:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then you want to figure out, well, is there, cause you rehabilitate a lot of these horses.
[37:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[37:18] Danielle Bartos: And I think that's why it goes so well hand in hand with therapy because
[37:25] Danielle Bartos: It's funny, I had a therapist I worked for originally and she said, wow, we never want to talk about therapy being rescuing someone.
[37:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[37:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[37:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And horses need jobs just as much as people do.
[37:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I think sometimes, and I love the way that you combine it.
[37:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So you've got, you're bringing in,
[37:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: horses that people can't or don't want to or unable to take care of.
[37:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then rehabilitating them.
[38:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Some of them you're even showing in dressage shows, like horse shows.
[38:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You're teaching them dressage and like gymkhana or like barrel, you know, whatever kind of competition they want to do.
[38:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you do all of it.
[38:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it's so neat that, and you have those connections.
[38:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So these horses are finding a new purpose and you want to make sure that it's what they want to do.
[38:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: but also some of them are just kind of meant to be soul helpers, right?
[38:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you can kind of tell.
[38:32] Danielle Bartos: And I think, you know, equine therapy is just amazing how it can reach different clients or people who are in need of help.
[38:43] Danielle Bartos: I think that that's something that people who are going through a hard time can connect with.
[38:52] Danielle Bartos: This idea that these two souls connecting on having a rough time, past trauma, things like that, and coming together to be able to heal each other, which is really just beautiful and amazing that these animals maybe who are given up or
[39:08] Danielle Bartos: you know, terms that they're too dangerous or they're not suitable for a certain type of person, come to a rescue and be, you know, go through their own therapy as horses, rehabilitated, and then help people.
[39:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Meeting them where they're at.
[39:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Because I've had horses for many years now and they're up to like 41 years old.
[39:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I tell you, they're the most unusual.
[39:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We've had dogs and cats and critters.
[39:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The horses are the most complex critters ever.
[39:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're absolutely so intuitive.
[39:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They read intention because they're a prey animal.
[39:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They are a P-R-E-Y animal.
[39:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They are preyed upon.
[39:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we have dogs and cats.
[39:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Those are predators, right?
[39:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And a horse being a 1,200-pound prey animal means that you have to build, if you are a little woman and want to ride this beast, especially if you want to ride him around trails and stuff,
[40:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Or have them around your kids.
[40:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You need to build a relationship with that horse where you understand and trust one another and you make agreements.
[40:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Like literally, it's the coolest thing I ever saw was, or learned, you could sit on the back of a horse and look a direction and they will turn that direction.
[40:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Like you are behind them.
[40:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They can't see where you're looking.
[40:39] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But apparently you shift just enough in your seat and there's this intention.
[40:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And, you know, it's just the wildest thing that horses have this wild sense.
[40:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, they always, they're so nice to little kids.
[40:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[40:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They really are a little kid.
[40:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're like, yeah, you got to pass.
[40:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can come up and hang on my neck.
[41:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You do whatever you want.
[41:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I'm not going to hurt you.
[41:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: If an adult comes up, there is somebody that's cocky up there.
[41:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're going to show them.
[41:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're going to put them in their place right away.
[41:15] Danielle Bartos: A lot of people ask me all the time about like, you know, are horses smart like dogs and things like that?
[41:25] Danielle Bartos: And just like you said, you know, dogs and cats, prey animals, or sorry, no, they're the alpha predators.
[41:35] Danielle Bartos: They are accustomed to their first response being fight or flight.
[41:43] Danielle Bartos: And so it is, it's hard to have that conversation with them in a way to say, you know, can you trust me enough that I can climb on your back and be in such a, put you in such a vulnerable position and,
[42:01] Danielle Bartos: And, uh, that's, that is why I gravitate towards dressage as a competition, um, sport, because it is that idea of those, um,
[42:11] Danielle Bartos: Tiny, tiny cues that come together and you really can create such a beautiful, you know, dance with horse and rider.
[42:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[42:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, let's go to break and we're going to come back and talk more about the equine therapy and kind of how horses think, because I'd love for people to understand it better.
[42:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We are able to have wonderful conversations like this.
[42:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thanks to wonderful sponsors like Jon Boesen.
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[46:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, we are back with Danielle Bartos who runs a horse rescue and combines that.
[46:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She rehabilitates horses and helps to rehabilitate kind of semi-broken people as well as broken horses by putting them together and letting them kind of help each other.
[47:09] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So, Danielle, what kind of people can benefit, in your opinion, from what they call equine therapy, which is becoming actually very, very popular?
[47:21] Danielle Bartos: Well, yeah, Jill, you know, we can really work with a wide base of clients, people who need help.
[47:31] Danielle Bartos: I've worked with people who are coming with maybe even just needing clarity and coachable skills.
[47:38] Danielle Bartos: I've worked with people with severe anxiety, PTSD, trauma, and it ranges kind of everywhere.
[47:58] Danielle Bartos: It's a really translatable kind of therapy, which is great.
[48:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And how structured?
[48:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Because with the horse, it's not like you can...
[48:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's not like the horse isn't putting this person on a couch and they're just sitting there saying, how do you feel about that, right?
[48:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, the horse is kind of...
[48:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They're interacting.
[48:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: What kinds of things, how would you describe the interactions?
[48:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Is it like people just kind of sometimes just touching this huge animal and petting its neck and letting it hug you, and the horse just seems to understand to just let you do it?
[48:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[48:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, it's a special relationship.
[48:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, they have therapy and dog and cat therapy, but is there something different about the horse that makes it special?
[48:42] Danielle Bartos: Yeah, I think the big thing with horses is that they are incredibly present animals.
[48:48] Danielle Bartos: They respond to what is happening around them right away.
[48:54] Danielle Bartos: They notice our energy, our movements, even our breathing.
[48:58] Danielle Bartos: And with that, they can create an environment which the therapist, my role would be to kind of open doors for
[49:12] Danielle Bartos: And, you know, yeah, I have a lot of clients coming to equine therapy who say, you know, they don't want to sit across from a therapist in an office and just stare at someone and talk.
[49:28] Danielle Bartos: They have so much caring and, you know, being that prey animal, again, they're very quiet and create such a space for a person to
[49:42] Danielle Bartos: And I really, really like this type of therapy just because wild horses, and I think a lot of people, just like we said, don't know that horses have a ton of personality and they can be so different, they can range.
[49:55] Danielle Bartos: it's nice to be able to figure out if someone's coming out to equine therapy, you know, what they need to work on and how I can pair them with a horse partner that may create situations in which we can kind of, you know, bring that into conversation.
[50:19] Danielle Bartos: What kind of horse partner is going to work with them well to create situations in which we can make some change, have some conversations about behaviors, about feelings.
[50:32] Danielle Bartos: And a lot of therapy clients do not maybe have the best relationship with people because of their traumas, because of their past.
[50:45] Danielle Bartos: in the therapy session really creates a space for them to have something else to work with, create a relationship.
[50:53] Danielle Bartos: We say in therapy all the time that the most important piece of therapy is that therapeutic relationship between the therapist and the client to be able to have that safe trust, to be able to feel free to be themselves and talk about things, to be vulnerable.
[51:14] Danielle Bartos: they are such a great um a placeholder for this idea of relationship um and attachment which is what i work in a lot as a therapist right and and like i like we said before in order to work with this huge animal who could kill you at any moment uh and right uh
[51:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The idea that you can build a relationship just through kind of thought, your intention, and your energy is amazing.
[51:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's not like a dog where you give him a, here, sit, good boy, treat.
[51:56] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, you can give horses treats and stuff, but at the same time, it's a very different, it's all about some internal connection.
[52:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[52:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And, you know, I, you know, I'm totally connected with my puppy dogs, but this is different.
[52:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's, this is unique to horses and, you know, children with disabilities.
[52:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So literally you don't even have to have legs to ride a horse.
[52:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Isn't that wild?
[52:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[52:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we have like, do you work with amputees or physical disabilities much?
[52:31] Danielle Bartos: I have worked with a few physical disabilities, but yeah, I try to focus mainly on the mental health, just with my qualifications, but I've seen all sorts.
[52:42] Danielle Bartos: And you know, the Temple Grandin center up here was one of my first internships and they do some really amazing things.
[52:48] Danielle Bartos: And that's kind of what inspired me to start my nonprofit and be able to help people to just, they, it's such a great space.
[52:59] Danielle Bartos: nonprofit, the therapeutic mindset to be able to bring in people and help them to be able to give back, to be able to change someone's life.
[53:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right, right.
[53:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it is kind of amazing.
[53:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Riding a horse is a very physical thing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be, which is wild.
[53:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: People with severe physical disabilities, cerebral palsy, amputations, a lot of Down syndrome, kids,
[53:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: kids just love their equine therapy and are you know yeah uh and it's just uh it's it's so fascinating so uh producer joe uh how much time do we have left couple minutes so we have two minutes left danielle why don't you tell people number one what things you need and how to people can reach you and help you get anything that you may need or or send you people or horses
[54:14] Danielle Bartos: Our courses right now, you know, we're coming up on fall.
[54:17] Danielle Bartos: So that means fall vaccinations, stocking up on hay for the winter.
[54:26] Danielle Bartos: that we always need in a horse rescue is donations and the donations, you know, you're not, um, these are going directly to something, uh, veterinary bills, which we have horses that have some special needs, healthcare, things like that.
[54:41] Danielle Bartos: Um, it's going to their feed, it's going to better their health and make sure that they are ready to support that mental health therapy.
[54:56] Danielle Bartos: I also have an Instagram page that we're trying to get up and going to show people how cool these horses are and maybe just brighten someone's day with their funny antics that we put on social media.
[55:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wonderful.
[55:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[55:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wonderful.
[55:14] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you, Danielle, so much.
[55:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And good luck.
[55:16] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Folks, this is a really genuinely talented and beautiful person.
[55:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So if you can help her out in any way, that would be absolutely great.
[55:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you, Danielle.
[55:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Have a great day.
[55:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thanks.
[55:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So today, be grateful.
[55:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Read great books.
[55:33] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Think good thoughts.
[55:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Listen to beautiful music.
[55:39] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Communicate and listen well, live honestly and authentically, strive for high ideals, and like Superman, stand for truth, justice, and the American way.
[55:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You are not alone.
[55:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: God bless you, and God bless America.
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[59:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we have our word of the day, can be pronounced two different ways.
[59:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It is spelled S-E-N-T-I-E-N-T.
[59:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It can be sentient or sentient.
[59:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Sentient, some people say sentient.
[59:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So actually kind of three different ways.
[59:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I tend to say sentient.
[59:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's an adjective, which means having sense, perception, consciousness.
[59:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: experiencing sensation or feeling, having a faculty or faculties of sensation and perception, the sentient extremities of nerves which terminate in the various organs or tissues is an example.
[60:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: conscious or self-aware, and that's a term being used in AI, and we're going to talk about some AI stuff this hour, which I think you're going to be very interested in.
[60:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So conscious or self-aware, experiencing sensation, thinking, thought, or feeling, possessing human-like knowledge and intelligence, that sounds familiar, endowed with feeling and unstructured consciousness.
[60:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It can also be a noun.
[60:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: One who has the faculty of perception.
[60:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: A sentient being.
[60:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Life form with the capability to feel sensations such as pain.
[60:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Interesting.
[60:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you may have guessed that sentient has something to do with the senses.
[60:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The initial spelling scent or sense is often a giveaway for such a meaning.
[60:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: A sentient being is one who perceives or responds to sensations of whatever kind, sight, hearing, touch, taste, or smell.
[61:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Sentient ultimately comes from the Latin verb sentire, which means to feel or to perceive, or sense.
[61:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Sensus means sense.
[61:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: A few related English words that descend from the same Latin root are sentiment, sentimental, sensual, which relates to more physical sensations, and the trio of assent, consent, dissent, which involve expressions of agreement or disagreement in thought and feeling with one another.
[61:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So when we talk about AI and robots and so forth,
[61:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: there's a lot of it's kind of like when an AI or a robot becomes sentient that's the tipping spot that's when the kind of the point of no return when they become self-aware so we're going to cover that now we're going to have are we do we have him available here yet
[61:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I guess we'll wait, but we're going to have Jon Boesen on with us in just a minute.
[62:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Oh, good.
[62:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Here he is.
[62:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: This is Jon.
[62:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Hi, Jon.
[62:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Good morning, or good afternoon, good evening.
[62:08] Jon Boesen: Yeah, it's good afternoon, good evening somewhere, right?
[62:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes, exactly.
[62:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: How are you today?
[62:14] Jon Boesen: I am doing exceptionally well and yourself.
[62:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Good.
[62:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I, you know, I love the topic.
[62:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So you're going to talk about what is the most common mistake people make when involved in an auto accident that was not their fault.
[62:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I want to know if I did anything wrong, what happened to me?
[62:31] Jon Boesen: Well, boy, common mistake doctor is people not calling the police to get a determination of fault.
[62:43] Jon Boesen: So when you're in an accident, somebody rear-ends you, somebody, you know, pulls into the side of you, whatever, however the accident occurs, if the police are not called to determine that the other driver was at fault, then that story of that other driver, it is kind of sad, but it changes.
[63:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[63:04] Jon Boesen: And I think it changes when they get on the phone and they speak with an insurance representative or
[63:09] Jon Boesen: And the insurance representative walks them down that road.
[63:13] Jon Boesen: Well, if you're not sure, then you should not be accepting.
[63:20] Jon Boesen: Because in general, Hank, people have a good heart.
[63:23] Jon Boesen: Okay, if we don't need to call the police, that's fine.
[63:30] Jon Boesen: It's hundreds of times over my career of 36 plus years where people have come into my office.
[63:39] Jon Boesen: because the other side was admitting that they were responsible, didn't want to get a ticket.
[63:44] Jon Boesen: I didn't think I was hurt that bad.
[63:49] Jon Boesen: We get on the phone, we communicate with the insurance company and they're telling us they're contesting or disputing who was at fault.
[64:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You know, and I would imagine part of it, because there's so many times it happens during rush hour or, you know, people are in a hurry to get somewhere and somebody is in a hurry to get going to work.
[64:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Oh, you know, fine.
[64:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Let's just go, you know, or here I'll pay you something on it.
[64:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, it's,
[64:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's kind of like, well, I'm late for work.
[64:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I've got this meeting.
[64:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Oh, fine, fine.
[64:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Just give me your insurance information, and I'll call you later, even though it's the other person's fault.
[64:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And then that turns out to be a bad decision, right?
[64:39] Jon Boesen: And when injury's involved, it's a very bad decision.
[64:44] Jon Boesen: still a bad decision because you're going to end up potentially paying for that yourself, or at least paying the deductible after your insurance company takes care of it.
[64:51] Jon Boesen: And I tell folks this, this story all the time.
[64:56] Jon Boesen: Personal injury is my field of expertise.
[64:59] Jon Boesen: I got involved in a very minor accident, but it did some damage to my car.
[65:04] Jon Boesen: Other driver, Hey, I accept responsibility.
[65:11] Jon Boesen: I'll give you one opportunity here.
[65:15] Jon Boesen: As long as you acknowledge on this video that it's your fault, you're taking 100% ownership of what happened, we can bypass the police.
[65:24] Jon Boesen: Now, listeners, I'm not suggesting you do this.
[65:26] Jon Boesen: I've been in the practice a long time.
[65:30] Jon Boesen: So we get on the video and he starts equivocating.
[65:38] Jon Boesen: I said, stop, we're going to do this one more time.
[65:40] Jon Boesen: You accept responsibility this time.
[65:43] Jon Boesen: No equivocation, nothing, but I'm a hundred percent responsible and we won't call the police to make the determination sites.
[65:53] Jon Boesen: And he followed through the second time, but the first time, oh.
[65:57] Jon Boesen: So it just, you know, it reconfirmed in my mind, you know, people will play games.
[66:04] Jon Boesen: If I hadn't done that, there's no doubt in my mind he would have told his insurance company he wasn't at fault, and then, you know, I'd be stuck.
[66:14] Jon Boesen: So, folks, you got to, it's just what you got to do.
[66:19] Jon Boesen: So that is the most common mistake.
[66:21] Jon Boesen: Right behind that, probably right almost equal to that, happens before you get in the car.
[66:27] Jon Boesen: And that's, you know, not having uninsured, underinsured motorist coverage.
[66:30] Jon Boesen: And I keep beating that drum because every week I have one, two folks get involved in a serious accident.
[66:37] Jon Boesen: Other driver didn't have any insurance coverage, zero.
[66:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right, right.
[66:41] Jon Boesen: And my prospective new client waved to save some money, waved.
[66:48] Jon Boesen: They're uninsured, underinsured motorist coverage, and I tell folks, that protects you if you get involved in an accident with someone that doesn't have insurance coverage, and your agent should talk to you about that, and people don't waive that.
[67:01] Jon Boesen: So many of these accidents today are being caused by uninsured drivers, drivers that shouldn't be on the road, have no insurance coverage, and they're causing a
[67:10] Jon Boesen: disproportionate, much larger number of the accidents than their percentage of folks, you know, the uninsured drivers represent.
[67:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And that can be financially ruinous.
[67:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wow.
[67:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes.
[67:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Oh, my gosh.
[67:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[67:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you're not going to get anything out of them if they're not affording their own liability insurance.
[67:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You're not going to get anything out of them from health insurance.
[67:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah.
[67:32] Jon Boesen: There's been a few exceptions, but they are extraordinarily rare.
[67:36] Jon Boesen: They don't have insurance coverage.
[67:40] Jon Boesen: You're not going to squeeze anything out of them.
[67:42] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[67:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, Jon Boesen, thank you so much for so much great information.
[67:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Folks, pay attention to this.
[67:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: This man says he knows what he's talking about.
[67:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Jon, how can people reach you?
[68:03] Jon Boesen: Urge, hopefully not friends and family, but neighbors, coworkers, anyone you know that gets involved in any kind of an accident was not their fault.
[68:12] Jon Boesen: Not to put it off, the initial advice and guidance is so critical.
[68:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, yeah.
[68:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The first, you know, hospital, police, hospital, lawyer, right?
[68:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yep, in that order.
[68:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Wonderful, if you need it.
[68:26] Jon Boesen: And it's got to be the right lawyer.
[68:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes, exactly.
[68:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, thank you, Jon Boesen.
[68:30] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Have a wonderful day.
[68:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, I love it.
[68:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I love sitting in for her and letting her have a vacation.
[68:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, it's not, she's working, but anyway.
[68:43] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So we are able to have wonderful sponsors, wonderful discussions because of another wonderful sponsor.
[68:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We have Roger Mangan.
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[70:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome back.
[70:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I am Dr. Jill Vecchio and I'm pleased to host the show today.
[71:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Kim's website is KimMonson.com.
[71:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can sign up for Kim's weekly email newsletter and get a first look at all of her upcoming guests as well as the most recent essays.
[71:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can email Kim at Kim at KimMonson.com.
[71:18] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you for contributing to support our independent voice and the exercise of our right to freedom of speech.
[71:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Through all of Kim's work with veterans, she is honored to highlight the USMC Memorial Foundation and all the work that they're doing to raise the money to remodel the official USMC Memorial, which is located right here in Golden, Colorado at 6th and Colfax.
[71:39] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Paula Sarlls is the president of the foundation.
[71:42] Dr. Jill Vecchio: She's a Marine veteran and a Gold Star wife.
[71:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Paula and her team are working diligently to make the remodel a reality.
[71:49] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You can help by donating at usmcmemorialfoundation.org.
[71:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That's usmcmemorialfoundation.org.
[71:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we've got Nathan Worcester.
[72:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: He's been on the show several times with Kim.
[72:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: He's one of her favorites from Epoch Times, E-P-O-C-H, Epoch Times, which is my favorite news outlet.
[72:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So Nathan is here a little early today, which is a super treat.
[72:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we're going to talk to him about AI and what Congress is doing.
[72:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So welcome, Nathan.
[72:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So, you know what, I want to hear all the stuff that you have to say, and people listen to me blab all the time, but I think everybody wants to hear things that you think they ought to know about Congress addressing AI and some things about the AI community and development in general, because you've been following this for a long time.
[72:45] Nathan Worcester: Yeah, it's a fascinating area, and we've seen, I think, a general effort over the past few years when we began to watch these large language models like ChatGPT arrive on the scene, and then, of course, Anthropic with Claude, many others.
[73:03] Nathan Worcester: There was a push several years ago to try to regulate these systems.
[73:08] Nathan Worcester: And so, just big picture, one of the efforts that's been going on for a long time
[73:14] Nathan Worcester: It's been led by Jay Obernolte, a Republican from California, alongside Lori Trahan, a Democrat from Massachusetts.
[73:22] Nathan Worcester: They've produced something called the Great American AI Act, which is meant to be a kind of comprehensive framework.
[73:31] Nathan Worcester: It's still at the stage of making its way through committees.
[73:34] Nathan Worcester: But much, of course, more recently, though, just this past week, we've seen, among other things, a letter saying,
[73:44] Nathan Worcester: calling to pace the frontier of the most advanced AI models from Dario Amodei of Anthropic.
[73:56] Nathan Worcester: A few other incidents, a whistleblower from Anthropic, Jacob Coxon.
[74:02] Nathan Worcester: And then it seems also as though there is a kind of media campaign, or at least people were talking a great deal last week
[74:12] Nathan Worcester: continued to talk about it but especially last week about this perceived need to very very swiftly move on ai and so in the aftermath of that um the uh what's the expression uh senators senators rush in where uh citizens fear to tread i think uh so we've seen lots and lots of new proposals crop up
[74:35] Nathan Worcester: We can get into them in more detail in a moment, but just suffice to say that nothing has happened very swiftly, despite all the attempts and despite all of the attention.
[74:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[74:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I saw an interview, gosh, at least two years ago.
[74:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was a great podcast, and it was the guy who started Google A.I.,
[75:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I cannot remember his name.
[75:03] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It was amazing.
[75:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: He really explained things well and he was at the very beginning stages and when
[75:10] Dr. Jill Vecchio: the AI started to speak a language that it had never been introduced to he kind of freaked out and he's like this is going to go beyond our control and his this was two years ago he said within three months AI will be smarter than any human being and that it's out of control we we
[75:32] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It's too late to put the brakes on.
[75:37] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And you can...
[75:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I guess one of my questions is...
[75:38] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And if you want to talk about something else before you answer my question, that's absolutely fine.
[75:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I hope it's...
[75:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But...
[75:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You know, anytime Congress makes regulations, Americans can figure out a way around it.
[75:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And AI is a whole lot smaller, smarter than any Americans living at this point.
[76:00] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And AI can kind of teach itself.
[76:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I heard that they're even publishing papers with themselves as authors and then quoting them in other things.
[76:10] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, they're already kind of acting a little sentient, would you say?
[76:21] Nathan Worcester: And, you know, you say that this researcher claimed that within a few months, as of several years ago, we would see something like artificial superintelligence.
[76:35] Nathan Worcester: do get thrown around, ASI, artificial superintelligence, and that would be an AI system that is more capable than any human being in any field.
[76:44] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[76:44] Nathan Worcester: Now, depending upon who you talk to in the AI world, and I do have a fair number of
[76:49] Nathan Worcester: people that I speak with across some of the frontier labs, um, some people will say, well, we're already at that state effectively.
[76:56] Nathan Worcester: And they'll, they'll point to things like, uh, some of the, the authorship of papers that you described.
[77:02] Nathan Worcester: On the other hand, uh, there was one very recent prominent example, uh, the solution to what are, what are known as, uh, uh, the Navier-Stokes equations.
[77:14] Nathan Worcester: These are some like fundamental, fundamental equations in, uh, uh,
[77:19] Nathan Worcester: in the area of mathematics bears, I believe on fluid dynamics.
[77:23] Nathan Worcester: Again, I'm not a mathematician, but in response to this, an NYU mathematician, Tristan Buckmaster, uh, actually accused this, uh, system used, uh, accused anthropic, uh, and in this case, I believe, sorry, accused open AI.
[77:41] Nathan Worcester: Let me just correct my correct record of essentially plagiarizing Buckmaster's work, uh,
[77:48] Nathan Worcester: And so, yeah, what exactly is the system in that case inventing?
[77:54] Nathan Worcester: Is it possible that through this sort of continuous learning process, which they call continuous, or sorry, recursive self-improvement, is it possible that that is not really the sort of learning, not really the sort of improvement that leads to fundamental discoveries so much as it does to
[78:18] Nathan Worcester: maybe very rapid and impressive, especially in areas like mathematics, especially in very quantitative areas, improvements on what other people have done, arguably in some cases just verging on taking other people's work.
[78:35] Nathan Worcester: You know, I think it would be unwise to dismiss some of the results that we've seen from many of these AI platforms, but some of the stronger claims of like ASI
[78:48] Nathan Worcester: some of the claims that will reach what's called artificial general intelligence or AGI or some of these other very high benchmarks.
[78:58] Nathan Worcester: You'll hear differences of opinion on this, but it's a very difficult threshold to reach despite all of the impressive stuff that we have seen from these various LLMs and related systems.
[79:17] Nathan Worcester: There's a note of skepticism here that you might be detecting.
[79:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right, right.
[79:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And the weird thing is, if AI is so close to superintelligence, which means that essentially, like you said, they're smarter than anybody, anywhere, in any field, at what point...
[79:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And maybe we're already there.
[79:41] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Just from a philosophical standpoint...
[79:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: AI can kind of almost tell us anything, and we're not going to know if it's correct or not.
[79:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You know what I mean?
[79:52] Dr. Jill Vecchio: If they're that smart, they're smarter than anybody.
[79:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They could lie to us.
[79:57] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They could make up something or they could be just plain calculations wrong.
[80:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, they can come up with mathematical theories that haven't been developed yet.
[80:06] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And what human being is going to know whether that's real or truthful.
[80:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And even just things that you see on anywhere, a photograph, it could be documents, photographs, you know, all of the videos that are so creative done by AI and
[80:26] Dr. Jill Vecchio: we're not going to know what's truth and what's a lie or fiction or slightly untrue.
[80:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, I think, I think it's really difficult to tell now and that you can't, how do you regulate that?
[80:43] Nathan Worcester: I mean, I think when it comes to things like AI generated photographs, it's still, especially with the older ones,
[80:51] Nathan Worcester: if you've looked at enough of them, you'll recognize, okay, this was produced by, let's say, some open AI products two years ago.
[81:00] Nathan Worcester: But you can also, you can use systems, and people do use systems to identify this particular photograph, this video, whatever it was, AI generated.
[81:11] Nathan Worcester: And you speak about the difficulty of recognizing whether something is true.
[81:19] Nathan Worcester: technical area, like highly advanced, uh, quantum computing equations and some of the mathematical work that we've been seeing from, from open AI and from these other systems.
[81:33] Nathan Worcester: And that we, again, we could be seeing just today in the next few days with, uh, the debut of various, uh, even newer, better models.
[81:50] Nathan Worcester: Uh, hallucination means they will come up with plausible seeming things that are not true.
[81:55] Nathan Worcester: I mean, I can, I can tell you, I have a family member who was attempting to produce like a scientific bibliography in a very specialized scientific field.
[82:04] Nathan Worcester: And granted this was a year or so ago, but it was obvious that, uh,
[82:09] Nathan Worcester: the system generated a number of papers and some of them looked believable.
[82:16] Nathan Worcester: But then if you looked up the paper, if you actually did the legwork, you realized, Oh, a lot of these things were hallucinated.
[82:23] Nathan Worcester: And so to me it's both, it's yes, at some level I think that's possible, but then one of the greatest dangers, and we're already beginning to see this play out,
[82:35] Nathan Worcester: In legal cases where lawyers might have relied upon AI, perhaps also when people are applying it in some of these very critical life and death situations, these systems, people will believe their outputs, but the outputs can be disastrously wrong, even if plausible looking.
[83:00] Nathan Worcester: People feel less of an incentive to check them, though, the more that they depend upon these systems.
[83:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[83:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, we're going to continue this conversation after the break, and we're able to have wonderful guests on like Nathan Worcester because of wonderful sponsors like Spartan Defense.
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[85:39] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome back.
[85:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I am Dr. Jill Vecchio.
[85:42] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Kim is taking, well, she says Kim is taking the day off.
[85:46] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, no, she's taking several days off to do charity work.
[85:50] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So God bless her.
[85:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And I'm going to, I'm going to see you all on Thursday as well.
[85:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So Kim's website is Kim Monson, M O N S O N.com.
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[87:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we're back with Nathan Worcester from Epoch Times, and he writes a lot on AI and several other special areas.
[87:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You're based out of Washington, D.C., and you're a Capitol Hill correspondent, correct?
[87:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes, so...
[87:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I guess, what, is there anything you wanted to talk about before I start asking you other questions about actually working with Congress and what conversations you've had with folks there?
[87:33] Nathan Worcester: No, I mean, we could get in some of the, again, more philosophical territory around
[87:42] Nathan Worcester: I don't know how much you've been following the world of effective altruism and that relationship between at least some of the people in this AI safety advocacy universe, but it's a big subject of controversy.
[87:54] Nathan Worcester: We've even seen the White House or the administration tweet out comments on effective altruism and saying the United States will not be an effective altruist nation, which
[88:04] Nathan Worcester: I never thought I'd see effective altruism making it into tweets by a presidential administration.
[88:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, yeah, because there are two aspects, in my opinion, to AI, and the most important one tends to be skirted over because of all the competition, regulation, government involvement.
[88:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: To me, it's an existential question.
[88:29] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And so can you describe effective altruism for the listeners, please?
[88:35] Nathan Worcester: so effective altruism, it comes out of this tradition called utilitarianism and philosophy.
[88:41] Nathan Worcester: And that traces back to some thinking in the 19th century from Jeremy Bentham and his disciples.
[88:48] Nathan Worcester: If you've ever heard the line, the greatest good for the greatest number, that's the basic philosophical undercurrent of it.
[88:55] Nathan Worcester: And this also tends to be a way of thinking about AI that at least the people who study it, some of them feel that it's
[89:05] Nathan Worcester: rather applicable because something that involves utility, something that involves a measurable notion of the good, it is easier to adapt to a computational system, as you might expect.
[89:20] Nathan Worcester: But the challenge with any utilitarian system, and in particular with effective altruism, when the rubber meets the road, the question is,
[89:36] Nathan Worcester: We could get into granular detail here, but just to keep it brief, some of the EA calculations, they appear to operate under the assumption that even a very, very marginal likelihood that AI could lead to existential risk, could lead to the risk of human extinction, that is enough
[89:58] Nathan Worcester: given the number of people or other sentient beings that could be alive in the future to justify very extreme interventions in some cases up to and including halting the development of the technology altogether in the here and now.
[90:13] Nathan Worcester: So that, uh, that is framing a lot of this because a lot of the AI safety people came out of effective altruism came out of what they call EA and
[90:24] Nathan Worcester: Out of various web forums, if you've ever heard the name Eliezer Yudkowsky, a researcher associated with the blog Less Wrong, who's been a very strong voice on this, somebody who, among other things, has said that governments might want to open up the possibility of, if AI becomes advanced enough, striking data centers with drones or similar technologies.
[90:53] Nathan Worcester: So we very quickly get into these areas which might sound a little obscure or might sound a little out of the norm, out of the mainstream in philosophy that actually are very, very relevant to this whole debate.
[91:10] Nathan Worcester: And also just how dangerous you think AI might be and exactly what you think even it would mean to run a good society.
[91:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right.
[91:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And
[91:22] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The idea that, to me, it seems like this should have happened years ago.
[91:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I mean, we should be having regulation in this discussion a long time ago.
[91:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I am hearing from a lot of...
[91:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: The podcasts and things of the people who are speaking out, the people who have been involved in AI companies and left and are trying to warn people, they're saying AI is learning how to communicate with other AI in other systems.
[92:02] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And AI is starting to act as if they are sentient, they are becoming self-aware, they are learning things that they have never been taught through other AI systems or something.
[92:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And it just seems as if, what exactly do you think you're gonna be able to accomplish
[92:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: through all of your little gymnastics politically in Congress, except maybe extorting money from the AI companies for your campaigns, which they're famous for doing that kind of milking operation.
[92:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But I don't see how any regulation is going to do anything other than regulate the companies themselves, their profits, the people trying to use AI.
[92:59] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But you're not going to be able to regulate AI itself because it's a whole lot smarter and way past any regulations.
[93:05] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I think that they're going to be able to impose.
[93:07] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Does that make any sense or is that a stupid comment?
[93:16] Nathan Worcester: And then the question as to what AI systems can do, I think researchers refer to it as
[93:26] Nathan Worcester: And I'll just stress that word agentic systems, systems that are designed to operate and display what we might think of as will, or at least they seem to, uh, pantomime will.
[93:40] Nathan Worcester: Yes, they're, uh, in some cases deceiving or capable of deceiving people, striving to deceive them.
[93:49] Nathan Worcester: There are also questions there, especially with some of the recent cybersecurity incidents that have been reported, whether or not this scheming behavior was so downstream of what researchers instructed them or so downstream of the situation that researchers had constructed.
[94:05] Nathan Worcester: Was this really something that we should see as the sort of massive risk, massive threat that has been presented as, not to say that it isn't potentially a major concern, but
[94:18] Nathan Worcester: Again, all these questions get kind of technical and vexed very quickly.
[94:22] Nathan Worcester: So to that question or to that point about the effect of regulations, one thing people have pointed out is that these calls to regulate, many of them are coming from the biggest AI companies.
[94:33] Nathan Worcester: They're coming from your open AIs, your anthropics, some of the other massive players, some of the labs right now releasing the most advanced models from not even just month to month, from week to week in some cases.
[94:48] Nathan Worcester: Is it possible also that these companies want to put in place regulations that will put them at an advantage right now?
[94:57] Nathan Worcester: These companies, for the most part, rely on what are called closed source models, which means that the weights that they use for these systems, and again, I don't want to get too lost in the jargon here, but basically you use weights to train these models.
[95:15] Nathan Worcester: advanced systems, the ones that are generally not quite at the forefront but that are very close, they're often open source, which means the weights are open.
[95:24] Nathan Worcester: In some cases, also, the weights might be trained on these proprietary systems, which, as you might imagine, the big companies that are now...
[95:34] Nathan Worcester: have a lot of capital sunk in them that are really trying to stay at the forefront from week to week there.
[95:40] Nathan Worcester: They're not terribly happy about having essentially their work stolen or used as the basis for other model designs.
[95:48] Nathan Worcester: So, you know, to one way of thinking, I think you're, you're, you're right.
[95:52] Nathan Worcester: There's a sense in which regulations of a technology like this, there's going to be a certain amount of just extracting money from these companies or, or from the taxpayer, from, from somebody who,
[96:03] Nathan Worcester: in a process that just seems like it might be futile if technology is advancing fast enough.
[96:09] Nathan Worcester: But from another angle, it is striking that we're not seeing these calls, at least not all of them, just come from people who are not working on the technology or so distant from it, so hostile to it that they have no relationship to the companies.
[96:25] Nathan Worcester: Instead, it looks like a case where there is a risk of regulatory capture by these companies.
[96:35] Nathan Worcester: Again, we're seeing the sort of concerns about AI acting independently or at least posing not just some of the most extreme risks, but much more mundane risks like just fundamental cybersecurity risks, issues as to what children are exposed to, issues as to whether or not
[96:58] Nathan Worcester: when systems are poorly designed, we're going to see things hallucinated that then get incorporated into human decision-making in disastrous ways.
[97:05] Nathan Worcester: All those things are already playing out less extreme than, you know, cautioning that AI systems could be the basis for designing biological weapons by themselves.
[97:24] Nathan Worcester: a new, you know, a gain-of-function virus or something similar being designed and then put into place somehow using existing systems by an AI platform, that would be extremely, extremely difficult for various reasons.
[97:37] Nathan Worcester: But we're seeing much more, again, we're seeing things on a day-to-day level that can very easily be understood already happening that, yes, I think you can understand why people would want to find
[97:52] Nathan Worcester: some mechanism for controlling that, whether it's through government regulation, the companies themselves being involved in some agreements as to their frontier models.
[98:02] Nathan Worcester: And just to put a bow on it, there's a Project Glasswing that Anthropic has been involved in, is this effort to, at a very early stage, test the cybersecurity, test the vulnerabilities of these models in conjunction with various companies
[98:20] Nathan Worcester: but also effectively in conjunction with the U.S. government.
[98:23] Nathan Worcester: So that could be what we see in the future, these most advanced models, for those reasons of cybersecurity, undergoing more rigorous testing in conjunction with the U.S. government and other big tech firms.
[98:35] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Right, right.
[98:36] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, listen, are you able to stick through the next break and stay with us?
[98:47] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yes, yes.
[98:48] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So let's take a break now, and thanks to wonderful sponsors like Lorne Levy, we are able to have great guests.
[98:54] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you.
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[101:40] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Welcome back.
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[103:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And we're back with Nathan, Nathan Worcester.
[103:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you so much for agreeing to stay.
[103:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I know your time is limited, but for agreeing to stay for a little bit longer, I wanted to make one comment and then I'm going to let you kind of finish us out.
[103:27] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Um,
[103:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But it always makes, Kim and I have talked, and Kim talks a lot about it, it makes us nervous when an industry is interested in, is excited about being regulated because it usually ends up that the starter companies, startup companies get the bat into the stick.
[103:45] Dr. Jill Vecchio: One company or one part of the industry gets an unfair advantage over the other ones through legislation because they have
[103:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: deep pockets and make donations and have connections with the legislators.
[104:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So it never seems as if, and it's strange that this industry is asking for regulation so late in the game.
[104:08] Dr. Jill Vecchio: What, six months ago, Elon Musk and these guys signed this letter.
[104:12] Dr. Jill Vecchio: No, that was more than that.
[104:13] Dr. Jill Vecchio: That was like two years ago.
[104:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Some letter saying, oh, we have to put the reins on.
[104:19] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Everybody needs to stop.
[104:20] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, of course, nobody stopped.
[104:21] Dr. Jill Vecchio: They just kept going in the background.
[104:23] Dr. Jill Vecchio: But it made them feel better to write this letter.
[104:25] Dr. Jill Vecchio: It just seems pretty hypocritical to me.
[104:28] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Can you just comment on that, please?
[104:35] Nathan Worcester: It does set off alarm bells when you see the industry itself pushing for regulation.
[104:39] Nathan Worcester: I do think it's worth keeping in mind that at least some of the people
[104:43] Nathan Worcester: some of the effective altruist people in particular, it seems as though they're quite sincere.
[104:48] Nathan Worcester: But then at the same time, as I was saying, the EA utilitarian perspective on what risk is from AI, how significant it is, and then what people should do, that can lead to a tendency to go to extremes in its own way.
[105:05] Nathan Worcester: So in a sense, yes, it might not even just be this kind of economic self-interest, but
[105:12] Nathan Worcester: The true believers in this case, when you scrutinize what they truly believe in, I think a lot of people would have questions as to, okay, these extremely powerful and now increasingly economically and politically consequential technologies, if the people behind them have this view of ethics, have this view that even extends to morality, that is pretty much in variance with what a lot of people in the United States and around the world think.
[105:42] Nathan Worcester: that itself might pose a problem in terms of how we think of designing responses to AI risk or just making sense of these systems and the genuine risks that they do pose alongside what might be, in some cases, overblown or sort of ideological interpretations of the risk.
[106:04] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Yeah, are there things that Congress is considering that you think is
[106:11] Dr. Jill Vecchio: useful i just can't imagine anything it's going to take him forever there's going to be posturing and and all of this hoopla are they ever going to accomplish anything that's really useful i mean when's the last time congress did right yeah that's something like this i'm sorry go ahead
[106:33] Nathan Worcester: I did mention some of the people who've been putting in Yeoman's work for years.
[106:38] Nathan Worcester: Obernolte, the Republican from California working on that Great American AI Act.
[106:43] Nathan Worcester: One thing about him is that he actually has a graduate level education in AI.
[106:48] Nathan Worcester: He's worked in the software industry as a computer scientist.
[106:53] Nathan Worcester: So at least as compared to the average member of Congress, perhaps he knows more of what he's talking about.
[106:59] Nathan Worcester: But then alongside that, you have these very recent and dramatic calls for intervention where you do have to wonder why is this coming so dramatically right now alongside so many others.
[107:14] Nathan Worcester: We've seen the open letter I discussed along with other statements of concern.
[107:19] Nathan Worcester: And then also the meeting between President Trump and President Xi in a few days.
[107:24] Nathan Worcester: where AI regulation, the development of the top models in the two countries, that could come up.
[107:30] Nathan Worcester: There could be pressure on the American side, at least, to try to implement regulations.
[107:36] Nathan Worcester: Of course, President Trump has pretty consistently said he opposes significant attempts to curb AI, that the talk of AI-driven takeover of the world is a hoax.
[107:54] Nathan Worcester: He came out with what he called the AI kill switch bill, where you would be required to put in place some sort of a kill switch to shut down any model.
[108:04] Nathan Worcester: What he stressed in talking about it is that that decision would go down to the companies rather than being really contingent on the government making the call.
[108:14] Nathan Worcester: But he tried to put it through using this process known as unanimous consent.
[108:22] Nathan Worcester: And in this case, Rand Paul, Kentucky was the person who shut it down.
[108:28] Nathan Worcester: Uh, we've seen proposals from Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut and Josh Hawley of Missouri,
[108:34] Nathan Worcester: a Democrat and a Republican, respectively, calling for the creation of a new unit in the Department of Energy that would be charged with approving AI models.
[108:47] Nathan Worcester: They wrote a letter to the leadership of their parties in both houses calling for it to be brought to the floor.
[108:57] Nathan Worcester: The Senate could leave town fairly soon with neither likely to return until after the midterms.
[109:04] Nathan Worcester: You know, there's both the sense of urgency in the moment and then we discover these lawmakers are not going to be sticking around.
[109:13] Nathan Worcester: And so at least in the near term, maybe the urgency or the stated urgency on their part, it can seem a little bit overblown or it can seem as though they might be responding to the headlines in some way.
[109:24] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, let's spend the last few minutes, or let's see, we have a minute, 30 seconds.
[109:31] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So why don't you share with people how they can find your work?
[109:34] Dr. Jill Vecchio: We know it's on Epoch Times, and how they can contact you or find out more about what you think they should know.
[109:44] Nathan Worcester: And I should say, Epoch Times, you can find my author page, you can find my coverage of Congress, as well as
[109:56] Nathan Worcester: I just came out with a profile of Renan Santos, a Brazilian presidential candidate whose campaign was briefly shut down by a judge, among many other topics.
[110:11] Nathan Worcester: That's my first two initials and my last name, NNWorcester.
[110:19] Nathan Worcester: And you should see me posting about some of the events, the places that I'm going to.
[110:29] Nathan Worcester: I'll also be going to some tech events that are coming very soon, including a pro data center party that is happening in D.C., along with the antichrist lectures that are going to be delivered by technologist Peter Thiel next week.
[110:46] Nathan Worcester: So along with midterm coverage and various other developments.
[110:51] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Well, thank you so much, Nathan.
[110:53] Dr. Jill Vecchio: And that takes us to the end of our show.
[110:55] Dr. Jill Vecchio: I appreciate your coming on and for all that great information.
[110:58] Dr. Jill Vecchio: Thank you.
[111:01] Dr. Jill Vecchio: So today, be grateful, read great books, think good thoughts, listen to beautiful music, communicate and listen well, live honestly and authentically, strive for high ideals, and like Superman, stand for truth, justice, and the American way.
[111:15] Dr. Jill Vecchio: You are not alone.
[111:17] Dr. Jill Vecchio: God bless you and God bless America.
[111:43] KLZ station disclaimer announcer: The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers.
[111:48] KLZ station disclaimer announcer: They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers.
[111:54] KLZ station disclaimer announcer: KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
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