[00:05] Announcer: It's the Kim Monson Show, analyzing the most important story.
[00:12] Kim Monson: Socialization of transportation, education, energy, housing, and water.
[00:16] Kim Monson: What it means is that government controls it through rules and regulations.
[00:19] Announcer: The latest in politics and world affairs.
[00:21] Kim Monson: Under this guise of bipartisanship and non-partisanship, it's actually tapped down the truth.
[00:27] Kim Monson: Truth, today's current opinions and ideas on an equal field in the battle of ideas, mistruths or misconceptions, and it is getting us into a world of hurt.
[00:38] Announcer: Is it freedom or is it force?
[00:41] Announcer: Let's have a conversation indeed, and welcome to the kim Monson show.
[00:52] Kim Monson: Take care of your heart, your soul, your mind and your body.
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[01:00] Kim Monson: That's producer steve zach, patty, keith, charlie and all the people here at crawford broadcasting.
[01:04] Kim Monson: These broadcasts that we have put together for you for thanksgiving week are so special, and today's, uh, no no exception, and we'll be talking with dr douglas, grotesque, and he is one of the foremost christian apologists in the nation.
[01:19] Kim Monson: Before we get to all of that, though, and check out my website, that's kim Monson m-o-n-s-o-n.
[01:24] Kim Monson: com sign up for our weekly newsletter there and you can email me at kim at kimMonson.
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[01:49] Kim Monson: One of those vendors or restaurants is hooters restaurants.
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[02:16] Kim Monson: Producer Steve, I so appreciate this team that we get to work with.
[02:22] Kim Monson: Douglas Groteis, you have a great story about him.
[02:25] Producer Steve: Well, it centers on how we got to know him in the first place.
[02:30] Producer Steve: It goes all the way back to, started in 2002.
[02:35] Producer Steve: The senior pastor of Riverside Baptist Church was on his way to a family reunion in Missouri, but unfortunately there was a car crash in Hays, Kansas, and he lost his life.
[02:46] Producer Steve: So it took us quite a while to find him a new senior pastor, but in the interim period, Dr.
[02:54] Producer Steve: Douglas Grotize came a couple times to preach a couple different sermon series, but the one that grabbed me the most was his series on truth, because just a few years earlier, post-modernism was really kicking in the door, and the church, any church, any evangelical church was probably very mindful of that, and the problem, main problem was it was this idea behind multiple truths.
[03:22] Producer Steve: And the question was, whose truth?
[03:24] Producer Steve: Your truth or mine?
[03:26] Producer Steve: And Dr.
[03:27] Producer Steve: Douglas Grotize just kicked in the door and set things straight.
[03:34] Kim Monson: Remember when people used to say, I'm going to go find my truth.
[03:37] Kim Monson: And I remember I said that to my dad one time and he's like, what?
[03:41] Producer Steve: Well, okay, that's a rite of passage.
[03:43] Producer Steve: I guess so.
[03:47] Kim Monson: But in this, where we are right now, truth, finding truth, and I know that we'll talk with Dr.
[03:52] Kim Monson: Douglas Groteis about this, but I thought we'd go to, we'll go to the Bible.
[03:59] Kim Monson: John 8, 32 says, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
[04:05] Kim Monson: I go to this whole COVID-19 Wuhan China virus and we continue to search for truth within the data, within the information about this.
[04:18] Kim Monson: And we continue to search for truth in this.
[04:23] Kim Monson: But there's been a lot of, I think, obfuscation of truth or manipulating of truth.
[04:31] Kim Monson: It says, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
[04:35] Kim Monson: So we need to search for that absolute truth.
[04:37] Producer Steve: You know, that's brilliant on your part.
[04:39] Producer Steve: That is an excellent illustration of what the whole biblical injunction says.
[04:46] Producer Steve: You know, you will seek truth.
[04:47] Producer Steve: You will find it.
[04:48] Producer Steve: It will set you free.
[04:49] Producer Steve: And because there's such a, oh, my God, it's beyond a parade.
[04:54] Producer Steve: It's a deluge of misinformation and or half-truths.
[04:58] Producer Steve: And, you know, I'll go out on a limb.
[05:00] Producer Steve: I say the Denver broadcast media, television-wise, is just not doing anybody a favor with all their half-truths and lack of really investigative reporting.
[05:11] Kim Monson: Well, and speaking of truth, we can all make mistakes.
[05:16] Kim Monson: If we make a mistake, we will want to clarify it.
[05:18] Kim Monson: It's not easy sometimes to say that you've made a mistake, but that does happen.
[05:23] Kim Monson: But you just mentioned the word half-truths.
[05:31] Producer Steve: Well, is a glass half full or half empty?
[05:34] Producer Steve: I think it's both because especially if it's done on purpose, it's saying, I'm going to tell you enough of the truth to make you go off in a certain direction that you probably would not go in if you knew the rest of the story, Paul Harvey.
[05:48] Producer Steve: So yeah, it's just as good as a lie.
[05:52] Producer Steve: Okay.
[05:53] Kim Monson: So manipulate a truth or a half truth.
[05:56] Kim Monson: I'll go out on a limb and say it's a big lie.
[06:00] Producer Steve: Yeah, I'm not, there's no debate here.
[06:02] Producer Steve: Sorry.
[06:04] Kim Monson: So we have to ask, as we are reflecting in the last, what, last 18 months or so, 20 months, from where we went from two weeks to flatten the curve to get the jab or lose your job.
[06:20] Kim Monson: And don't even take into account the fact that people that have had COVID have antibodies.
[06:30] Kim Monson: And, of course, they're saying the jab is not as efficient as it used to be.
[06:34] Kim Monson: So there seems to be some mistruth around this whole thing, which I say, Steve, I mean, this is very powerful.
[06:43] Kim Monson: Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
[06:44] Kim Monson: And as we're looking at this tyranny and this oppression that's being used on the American public, that's why we do this show is to search for truth to help you be free.
[06:56] Producer Steve: Well, I'm looking at the notes for the show that we're going to do with Patty later this week.
[07:03] Producer Steve: And the way she opens up is, as we approach week 88, in the world of two weeks to flatten the curve.
[07:10] Producer Steve: And all I'm going to say is that, OK, we all know what a dam, the structure known as a dam does.
[07:14] Producer Steve: It holds back water.
[07:18] Producer Steve: There is a dam that right now is out there and there's a lot of things building up behind it.
[07:23] Producer Steve: And they're all the the truth, the hideous things that are happening with this vaccine.
[07:29] Producer Steve: But yet, you know, major media, everyone's linking arms and they're doing their best to hold this thing back.
[07:34] Producer Steve: If this damn break somewhere down the line.
[07:37] Producer Steve: Oh, my gosh, I can't imagine what this what it's going to be like, not just in this country, but around the world.
[07:43] Kim Monson: Well, and to that, the truth shall set you free.
[07:45] Kim Monson: And America was founded on this idea of freedom of liberty.
[07:48] Kim Monson: And as our friend Ben Martin said, liberty is the responsible exercise of freedom.
[07:54] Kim Monson: And there is a responsibility to each and every one of us and to our press to be searching for truth, to reporting the truth.
[08:04] Kim Monson: But it's important to, I think, search for that absolute truth in each of these particular questions that we have there.
[08:12] Kim Monson: So I promise that this is going to be a really terrific show as we talk with Dr.
[08:18] Kim Monson: about a variety of different issues out there.
[08:23] Kim Monson: When we come back, we'll start the conversation with Dr.
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[09:08] Producer Steve: You'd like to get in touch with one of Kim Monson's sponsors, but you can't recall their phone number.
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[09:18] Producer Steve: That's Kim, M-O-N-S-O-N.
[09:20] Producer Steve: com.
[09:25] Kim Monson: And welcome back to the Kim Monson Show.
[09:34] Kim Monson: Sign up for our weekly newsletter there, and you can email me at Kim at KimMonson.
[09:40] Kim Monson: Thank you to all of you who support us.
[09:41] Kim Monson: We are an independent voice, and we search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through this lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom.
[09:50] Kim Monson: During this Thanksgiving week, we have planned some really amazing shows for you, and I'm so thrilled to have our next guest, Dr.
[09:57] Kim Monson: He's a member of the Evangelical Theological Society, the Evangelical Philosophical Society, and Society of Christian Philosophers.
[10:07] Kim Monson: Groteis received a PhD and BS from the University of Oregon and a Master's in Philosophy from the University of Wisconsin in Madison.
[10:17] Kim Monson: And he does a lot of work in apologetics, in Christian apologetics, which that means in defense of the Christian faith.
[10:30] Kim Monson: Well, first thing I'd like to talk with you about.
[10:34] Kim Monson: I was looking at all the different books that you have written, but one of the titles that really got me was Christianity That Counts.
[10:43] Kim Monson: So let's talk about that, particularly in this 2021 world that we live in, Dr.
[10:50] Doug Groothuis: Well, I think the best place to start is the whole idea of truth.
[10:55] Doug Groothuis: because I hear so many people now talking about my truth and his truth and the truth of some, you know, there's racial truth and there's gender truth.
[11:06] Doug Groothuis: And I think we need to take seriously everyone's experiences.
[11:13] Doug Groothuis: People are made in the image and likeness of God, the Bible tells us, and Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
[11:31] Doug Groothuis: I heard Don Lemon say that on television sometime recently.
[11:36] Doug Groothuis: I don't watch him too much, but he said, well, that's my truth.
[11:40] Doug Groothuis: And I was reading an article in The Yorker, and it was talking about the critical legal theory writer Derrick Bell.
[11:48] Doug Groothuis: And it ended with, well, Derrick Bell told his truth.
[11:54] Doug Groothuis: We need to know what is true, and truth is what corresponds to reality.
[11:58] Doug Groothuis: Or you might say that facts make beliefs true, or the lack of a fact makes a belief false.
[12:06] Doug Groothuis: So there's a lot of emphasis now with this whole debate over critical race theory and so on, about truth and lived experience.
[12:19] Doug Groothuis: and the idea is, well, if a group has historically been oppressed, then they're probably still oppressed, and if they feel oppressed through the reports of their lived experience, then we just have to take that to be true.
[12:34] Doug Groothuis: And I say, well, there's an experience of something or another, but it's always possible that someone has interpreted their experience wrongly.
[12:42] Doug Groothuis: So in my career as a philosopher over many years and as an apologist, I've tried to emphasize defending this objective view of truth or the correspondence view of truth against what's called relativism, where truth is simply how you experience it or how you define it.
[13:04] Doug Groothuis: And that's very dangerous because we really need to be humble before reality, and we need to let reality correct us.
[13:13] Doug Groothuis: And if we simply make truth a matter of personal experience or of some kind of collective feeling of a gender or race or whatever it is, we lose touch with reality, and then all that's left is manipulating images and soundbites and talking points.
[13:33] Doug Groothuis: It takes some tenacity to try to get to the truth of matters, and as a follower of Christ, I believe the ultimate, the most important truth, is the Gospel, that God has sent His only Son into the world to redeem us, to forgive our sins through His death on the cross and His resurrection.
[13:55] Doug Groothuis: So Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
[14:01] Doug Groothuis: And He backed it up by His righteous life, His loving death, His resurrection from the dead.
[14:07] Doug Groothuis: so I think that is the ultimate truth, and I've defended that and tried to explain that over many, many years, but the very concept of truth is being attacked subtly, often.
[14:23] Doug Groothuis: You don't hear people say, I'm going to attack the objective view of truth, but you hear them talk about my truth, or you hear them talk about how lived experience is the ultimate test for truth, and that really concerns me as a philosopher and as a Christian.
[14:39] Kim Monson: Well, on our show, we talk about searching for truth and clarity as we look at these issues, and we are looking for that foundational truth.
[14:49] Kim Monson: And as you were talking on this whole relativism and how people feel, I was thinking about people could agree that 2 plus 2 equals 5.
[14:57] Kim Monson: They can say that that is their truth, but it's not true.
[15:02] Kim Monson: And I know that's a very simple example, but it somehow that speaks to me as I'm trying to to work through this relativism and truth.
[15:13] Doug Groothuis: Well, it's actually a very good example, and what is amazing to me is that some folks are saying that the idea of objective truth and of basic logic is a white racist idea.
[15:29] Doug Groothuis: It's hard to believe people say this, but I've seen it in several different places.
[15:35] Doug Groothuis: I even heard someone on national public radio say that the idea of objective truth is a white supremacist idea.
[15:41] Doug Groothuis: And I thought, my goodness, well, that claim right there is a claim to objective truth.
[15:45] Doug Groothuis: You're saying the concept of objective truth is, that is, objectively is, a white supremacist idea.
[15:53] Doug Groothuis: And we've kind of lost our minds on this if we believe something like that, because to assert anything about reality, we have to make some kind of objective truth claim.
[16:05] Doug Groothuis: So if someone says the United States is a white supremacist system, that's a universal, objective, absolute claim, and then it needs some support.
[16:15] Doug Groothuis: And you need to have a dialogue back and forth about, well, what about it is racist?
[16:20] Doug Groothuis: Where have we made progress on matters of race, and so on.
[16:25] Doug Groothuis: But when we're talking about the realm of moral values, yes, people have different opinions about it, but that doesn't mean that these moral values are relative to and contingent upon anyone.
[16:45] Doug Groothuis: So that example of mathematics is really a good one because people want to say, well, sure, mathematics, multiplication table, those are objective truths.
[16:58] Doug Groothuis: But when you come to values and social concerns, we really can't talk like that.
[17:07] Doug Groothuis: We need to find some common ground that we can agree on.
[17:10] Doug Groothuis: And I think we ultimately find that the ultimate revelation of knowledge, of justified true belief, is in the Bible.
[17:19] Doug Groothuis: But as a nation, I just finished a manuscript on critical race theory I sent off to Regnery, and I spent a lot of time on our founding documents.
[17:30] Doug Groothuis: And certainly, we could go to the Declaration of Independence, as did Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King and say, here's a creed, here's an American creed, that all men are created equal, and God has given us certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and so on.
[17:51] Doug Groothuis: I hope Americans can go to that and say that is a strong foundation of our national life, and it's not merely our national life, it's got a theological basis.
[18:06] Doug Groothuis: We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights.
[18:12] Doug Groothuis: And at the time that was written, it wasn't fleshed out consistently in America, because slavery still existed.
[18:19] Doug Groothuis: But it's interesting that the abolitionists, or at least many of them, would appeal to the Declaration, and even to the Constitution, and say, we need to live true to our creed, to the truth of the matter.
[18:30] Doug Groothuis: And if you look at something like Martin Luther King's great speech in Washington, I think it was 1963, he appeals to the Declaration.
[18:40] Doug Groothuis: And he says, we've come here to cash a check that the Declaration, and also he said the magnificent documents of the Declaration and the Constitution, he affirmed both, said we're here to hold America true to its creed.
[18:58] Doug Groothuis: So let's get rid of this idea that the truth about morality or truth about the political order is just a matter of power plays, sound bites, and imagery, so to speak, or just throwing around images.
[19:11] Doug Groothuis: We need to try to get to the truth of the matter and find some common ground.
[19:19] Kim Monson: Groteis, you mentioned objective truth, and I'm not sure I understand what that is exactly?
[19:25] Doug Groothuis: Well, it means truth that is true independent of my feeling or thought or observation.
[19:34] Doug Groothuis: So what you said, basic mathematics, those are objectively true.
[19:42] Doug Groothuis: An illustration I like to use is if you have three people in a room, and let's say the room temperature is 70 degrees, that's the objective truth.
[19:51] Kim Monson: but subjectively one person could feel comfortable one person could feel cold and one person could feel hot so the respective feelings in the 70 70 degree room are varied right but the objective truth is that it's 70 degrees very interesting on that and we've got about four minutes on this particular segment and you were talking about truth and i had been at an event and it was a national, I think, talk show host or whatever, she had given this example on that, let's see, truth is the facts with context.
[20:33] Kim Monson: And what she said is, we're all in this ballroom, and a couple has left, a man and a woman has left.
[20:42] Kim Monson: And on the chair is a purse, and a man comes in and takes the purse and leaves.
[20:49] Kim Monson: And the fact is, man comes in, takes purse, leaves from ballroom.
[20:53] Kim Monson: But the actual context of this, one could think that he stole it.
[20:57] Kim Monson: But the actual context was they got to the car, she says, honey, I forgot my purse.
[21:02] Kim Monson: And so he goes back into the ballroom, picks up the purse.
[21:07] Kim Monson: But the real truth was the context of that.
[21:11] Kim Monson: And I thought that was a very interesting example.
[21:14] Doug Groothuis: Well, it is definitely because you need to know the general facts of the matter in the situation.
[21:20] Doug Groothuis: So the way you interpret that depends on other facts.
[21:25] Doug Groothuis: And if you simply click the video of a man coming in and taking a purse and say, man steals woman's purse and then put it all over the internet, a lot of people, you know, the man will say it's a noteworthy political figure.
[21:37] Doug Groothuis: Then you'd have a scandal and you'd have the image projected, distributed all over the place.
[21:44] Doug Groothuis: But the larger framework is, his wife forgot the purse.
[21:49] Doug Groothuis: So one of the problems with discerning truth today is that so many things, images, words, are taken out of context, and then they are distributed all around the Internet.
[22:06] Doug Groothuis: They become, they go viral, and everybody thinks they know the truth of the matter, when in fact they don't.
[22:12] Doug Groothuis: And gosh, the worst example of this I have ever seen, and I'm a student of media culture and philosophy of technology, was the George Floyd situation.
[22:22] Doug Groothuis: Everybody was utterly outraged that this policeman suffocated an innocent black man.
[22:33] Doug Groothuis: And we find later, if we take the trouble to look into it, that the context was a lot more complicated than that.
[22:43] Doug Groothuis: You know, and we don't have to go into all of that right now.
[22:45] Doug Groothuis: I'm not justifying what happened, but the context was a lot more nuanced.
[22:49] Doug Groothuis: And we've got to understand what happened, that George Floyd was saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, before he was put in the compliance hold.
[23:06] Kim Monson: Well, I stole it from this person, so I think that that works out just fine.
[23:11] Kim Monson: And we're going to go to break, and certainly we're coming into Thanksgiving.
[23:15] Kim Monson: There's so much to be grateful for.
[23:17] Kim Monson: I wish each and every one of you a blessed Thanksgiving for sure.
[23:23] Kim Monson: The initial subject which starts us on this is his book that he had written, and that is Christianity That Counts.
[23:30] Kim Monson: But before we go to break, I am blessed to get to work with a lot of different great partners.
[23:34] Kim Monson: And one of those great partners is Kirsch Insurance Group.
[23:38] Kim Monson: And Kirsch Insurance Group specializes in the Medicare arena.
[23:42] Kim Monson: And the government says that you have a certain time frame, that's October 15th through December 7th, if you want to make changes for the next year.
[23:50] Kim Monson: And Kirsch Insurance Group work with many of the carriers throughout here in Colorado.
[23:54] Kim Monson: And they have software that they can put in your medications and determine what is the best plan for you.
[24:01] Kim Monson: And December 7th is right around the corner.
[24:02] Kim Monson: I'd recommend that you reach out to Marlon, Danielle, Naomi, the whole team over there.
[24:17] Kim Monson: When we come back, we'll continue the conversation with Dr.
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[25:00] Kim Monson: And welcome back to The Kim Monson Show.
[25:05] Kim Monson: Sign up for our weekly newsletter there.
[25:07] Kim Monson: And you can email me at Kim at KimMonson.
[25:11] Kim Monson: And wish each and every one of you a very blessed Thanksgiving, whether or not you are getting together with family and friends or possibly having a very quiet Thanksgiving.
[25:20] Kim Monson: Wish each of you a very blessed Thanksgiving.
[25:26] Kim Monson: And he is really one of the premier Christian apologists, I would say, in America today.
[25:35] Kim Monson: And he's a member of the Evangelical Theological Society, the Evangelical Philosophical Society, and the Society of Christian Philosophers.
[25:44] Kim Monson: Groteis, I just have to ask you, I've always kind of thought Christian and philosophers wasn't in the same sentence, but it is, isn't it?
[25:52] Doug Groothuis: Well, I hope so, because I have three degrees in philosophy, all from secular schools.
[25:59] Doug Groothuis: But philosophy basically just means the love of wisdom.
[26:05] Doug Groothuis: 8 about false and deceptive philosophies that are based merely on human wisdom.
[26:11] Doug Groothuis: But you could even say that Jesus was a philosopher because he thought well, he had a coherent worldview, He knew how to argue his beliefs very adroitly.
[26:24] Doug Groothuis: So certainly philosophers can be atheists, or they could be pantheists, or they could be Marxists, but philosophy at its best is really the art of critical thinking and trying to defend what you believe through reason and evidence.
[26:38] Doug Groothuis: So I find that to be extremely helpful as I look at my Christian faith and Scripture, and so on.
[26:47] Doug Groothuis: And actually, next term, I'll be teaching a class as an adjunct at Colorado Christian University, which is an intro to philosophy class.
[26:56] Doug Groothuis: And I should have 20 or 30 undergrads being introduced to philosophy, and I am really jazzed about that.
[27:02] Kim Monson: Oh, I'm excited for them that they will be in your class.
[27:07] Kim Monson: And you said the love of wisdom, the search of wisdom, I would say.
[27:11] Kim Monson: But let's talk in this particular segment about something that is front and center in the conversation in America right now, and that is critical race theory.
[27:21] Kim Monson: You said that you've just completed a book.
[27:23] Kim Monson: It's going to be coming out probably this summer.
[27:36] Doug Groothuis: And some people say, well, there is no such thing as critical race theory.
[27:41] Doug Groothuis: and all these conservatives are making it up so they don't have to look at America's very checkered racial background with slavery, Jim Crow redlining.
[27:50] Doug Groothuis: Well, take it from me, critical race theory is a thing.
[27:56] Doug Groothuis: I have a book on my shelf called Critical Race Theory, an introduction.
[28:04] Doug Groothuis: but essentially it comes out of Marxism, but it's a cultural twist on Marxism.
[28:13] Doug Groothuis: It doesn't merely talk about economic oppression and the ongoing class struggle between the owners of the means of production and the workers, who are constantly oppressed and need to revolt.
[28:25] Doug Groothuis: The categories it typically uses are racial categories.
[28:35] Doug Groothuis: But the idea is that societies are typically racist.
[28:43] Doug Groothuis: And so you have to understand how one race is oppressing the other race.
[28:49] Doug Groothuis: is that you have what they call white supremacy and white privilege and so on.
[28:58] Doug Groothuis: So the idea is that American society is systemically racist, and that it has been racist from the beginning.
[29:07] Doug Groothuis: So you have something that came out two years ago in the New York Times called the 1619 Project.
[29:14] Doug Groothuis: But the claim made in there is that when the first slaves came to the U.
[29:22] Doug Groothuis: in 1619, that really formed the backbone and the framework for the whole country.
[29:31] Doug Groothuis: That was just a fraud, supposedly, the Declaration.
[29:34] Doug Groothuis: But it's the importing of slaves in 1619, and then they even make the claim that the War of Independence, the Revolutionary War, was fought in order to preserve slavery, so much for what the Declaration actually says.
[29:57] Doug Groothuis: The essential problem is that it's a form of Marxism, and Marxism is a false, irrational, and dangerous worldview.
[30:06] Doug Groothuis: It's a worldview of division and fomenting conflict between different groups of people.
[30:13] Doug Groothuis: And now the conflict is more, in critical race theory, understood in terms of racial conflict.
[30:20] Doug Groothuis: So you have the oppressors with white privilege, and then you have the oppressed, which is everybody else, basically, people of color.
[30:31] Doug Groothuis: And America has a very mixed background about race, certainly with slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, redlining, and there's still racism today.
[30:45] Doug Groothuis: But what I want to dispute is that America was founded on racism.
[30:51] Doug Groothuis: Now, the issue, as I said in the previous segment, is are we living true to our creed?
[30:57] Doug Groothuis: And it took quite a bit of time to abolish slavery and to deal with Jim Crow laws and to try to bring more equality of opportunity and equal rights to everybody, red and yellow, black and white.
[31:11] Doug Groothuis: But to say that America is basically rotten to the core and that it needs to be torn down, which is really the premise of a lot of the protests and riots in 2020, is to saw off the limb that we're sitting on.
[31:30] Doug Groothuis: Because the whole proposition of America, I call it the American creed, is that all people are created equal.
[31:36] Doug Groothuis: We live in a society of opportunity, and we also are a self-reforming society.
[31:42] Doug Groothuis: The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution give every American rights, not just white Americans, but every American.
[31:54] Doug Groothuis: So the issue, I think, is living true to the creed, the American creed, so to speak, not fundamentally transforming America, not spreading the wealth around through some kind of socialism.
[32:07] Doug Groothuis: not burning it all down because the whole system is corrupt, but reforming on the basis of fundamental principles.
[32:15] Doug Groothuis: And the principles of the United States were very much informed by biblical revelation.
[32:23] Doug Groothuis: Where do you get the idea that all men are created equal?
[32:26] Doug Groothuis: Now, the Declaration doesn't say we're made in the image and likeness of God, but that's the only basis for viewing all people as equal before God.
[32:40] Doug Groothuis: So you need a theological premise about the divine origin of humanity and divine inherent dignity to ground that.
[32:50] Doug Groothuis: And we have that in the Declaration, and that gets worked out in the Constitution.
[32:56] Doug Groothuis: I heard Rick Santorum years ago say that the Declaration is the why of America, and the Constitution is the how of America.
[33:05] Doug Groothuis: And I think that's really an apt way of putting it.
[33:13] Kim Monson: And I'm going to present this to you and to get your comment.
[33:17] Kim Monson: I've thought that the American idea and Christianity
[33:21] Kim Monson: Because America talks about the freedom of the individual, that all men are created equal with these rights from God of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
[33:30] Kim Monson: So this individual, these individual rights, but also Christ went to the cross for each individual.
[33:38] Kim Monson: So in my mind, those two things match up.
[33:41] Kim Monson: But what would your thoughts be on that?
[33:45] Doug Groothuis: The First Amendment gives us religious freedom, and it also forbids the Congress from establishing any religion.
[33:56] Doug Groothuis: And that's part of the American genius, because religions have to compete for followers.
[34:03] Doug Groothuis: There's a freedom, along with freedom of speech and freedom of the press and so on in the First Amendment.
[34:08] Doug Groothuis: So religion is not coerced, and religion is not forbidden.
[34:15] Doug Groothuis: So that appeals to the whole idea of the individual conscience, which is definitely a Christian idea.
[34:25] Doug Groothuis: So we are not somehow required to hold any religious beliefs, But within the boundaries of the law, we can hold individual beliefs, freedom of conscience, we can organize to promote those beliefs within the framework of law, and may the best and truest religion gain the most followers.
[34:50] Doug Groothuis: But we're not going to demand that, and we're not going to subsidize religion, but we're going to create a forum, so to speak, in which religions and non-religions can compete.
[35:03] Doug Groothuis: And that's really part of the uniqueness of the American creed.
[35:08] Doug Groothuis: And we've seen that Christianity was formative in the founding principles of our country.
[35:14] Doug Groothuis: And, of course, Christianity has been the most significant and most influential religion, all the while that it's not established, which is, I think, the way it should be.
[35:27] Kim Monson: Because the founders, what you're talking about, the Congress shall establish no religion.
[35:32] Kim Monson: And so I'm thinking government should establish no religion.
[35:36] Kim Monson: But in the secular society that we have now, it seems that there are religions, environmentalism or climate change, whereas this religion has been established and Congress, government, is then subsidizing this religion, putting forth public policy for that religion.
[35:57] Kim Monson: Is that a stretch or what do you think about that?
[35:59] Doug Groothuis: Yeah, I know what you're saying, and I've thought about that a lot over the years, because there was a Supreme Court ruling, I think it was 63, Torcaso v.
[36:10] Doug Groothuis: Watkins, and there's a footnote in that ruling that talks about other religions like secular humanism.
[36:20] Doug Groothuis: So that brings up the philosophical question of what is a religion.
[36:23] Doug Groothuis: And most people, a lot of people think, well, a religion has to do with what is spiritual or a god or supernatural, something like that.
[36:32] Doug Groothuis: And that's probably a good academic definition of religion.
[36:36] Doug Groothuis: That would differentiate a religious viewpoint from a secular or atheistic viewpoint.
[36:43] Doug Groothuis: But there are still, you might say, de facto religions.
[36:47] Doug Groothuis: So the worldview, the philosophy of life that's taught in the public schools is naturalism.
[36:57] Doug Groothuis: It's the belief that the world is understood in terms of matter and energy and space and time, and religion in the supernatural sense is really just a matter of private opinion, and there's no factual basis for any of it.
[37:14] Doug Groothuis: And so we teach everything as if there were no God.
[37:22] Doug Groothuis: That's privileging one viewpoint, a naturalistic viewpoint.
[37:27] Doug Groothuis: This is going to involve Darwinism, and in fact it will now often involve critical race theory and so on.
[37:34] Doug Groothuis: So that is the establishment of what you might call a de facto religion, and that's why I'm a very strong advocate of charter schools, which have more freedom in what is taught, and why I advocate school choice.
[37:49] Doug Groothuis: Long ago, Milton Friedman was advocating that, and people like Thomas Sowell and other people do.
[37:55] Doug Groothuis: So let's break up the monopoly of state education, and I think that schools should compete with other schools, and then parents can send their children in places that fit their worldview.
[38:09] Doug Groothuis: In fact, I was teaching a philosophy class at Metro State several years ago, and I gave a critique of naturalism.
[38:20] Doug Groothuis: And I said, you know, if what I just said is true, the assumption of just about all of your textbooks and all of your classes is wrong.
[38:29] Doug Groothuis: I just let that sink in a little bit, get them to think about that.
[38:35] Kim Monson: And what was their reaction to that, Dr.
[38:41] Doug Groothuis: They reflected on it because I had some credibility.
[38:46] Doug Groothuis: I was giving an argument for objective moral values.
[38:50] Doug Groothuis: And I said, if there are objective moral values, they're not in the natural world.
[38:56] Doug Groothuis: They have to do with how we ought to live and how we ought to comport ourselves.
[39:04] Doug Groothuis: There has to be a realm of values that's beyond the natural world.
[39:08] Doug Groothuis: So I think people thought about it and they reflected on it, and I just let them sit with it for a while, and then we went on with class.
[39:15] Doug Groothuis: So I'm glad I've had those kind of opportunities over the years.
[39:19] Doug Groothuis: You know, that goes back to your question about being a Christian philosopher, because the truth is on the side of Christianity.
[39:25] Doug Groothuis: And we can use good rational arguments for showing the existence of God, objective moral values, reliability of the Bible, and so on.
[39:34] Kim Monson: And that is what Christian apologetics is really about, correct?
[39:46] Kim Monson: Douglas Groteis about some of the books that he's written.
[39:48] Kim Monson: We were unpacking critical race theory and how that all works out.
[39:53] Kim Monson: We're going to go to break, and when we come back, we'll talk about a really important book that he has written, and that is Walking Through Twilight, A Wife's Illness, A Philosopher's Lament.
[40:04] Kim Monson: So before we do that, though, Castlegate Knife and Tool is another great sponsor of the Kim Monson Show and America's Veterans Stories with Kim Monson.
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[41:40] Kim Monson: And welcome back to The Kim Monson Show.
[41:46] Kim Monson: That's kimMonson, M-O-N-S-O-N, dot com.
[41:47] Kim Monson: Sign up for our weekly newsletter there.
[41:49] Kim Monson: And you can email me at kim at kimMonson.
[41:53] Kim Monson: And for this Thanksgiving week, we always like to do exceptionally special shows.
[41:58] Kim Monson: And today is one we're talking with Dr.
[42:01] Kim Monson: He's a member of the Evangelical Theological Society, the Evangelical Philosophical Society, and the Society of Christian Philosophers.
[42:08] Kim Monson: He is one of the foremost Christian apologists in the country.
[42:15] Kim Monson: The first segment that we talked with him, we talked about Christianity That Counts.
[42:22] Kim Monson: We began with a book that will be coming out in July, and that is fire in the streets, talking about critical race theory, but dr.
[42:29] Kim Monson: Groteis, one of your most recent books: walking through twilight, a wife's illness, a philosopher's lament.
[42:35] Kim Monson: As we're at Thanksgiving time, certainly it's a time to reflect with friends and family, but also there's times of reflection of those that have passed on.
[42:44] Kim Monson: So talk to us a little bit about this book.
[42:46] Doug Groothuis: Yes, this, This book is about my late wife, Rebecca Merrill Grothuis, who was a writer and editor, and singer and poet.
[43:05] Doug Groothuis: We found out that Becky had dementia in 2014, a very rare form called primary progressive aphasia.
[43:12] Doug Groothuis: I didn't even know what it was until we got the diagnosis.
[43:16] Doug Groothuis: She had been in the hospital for several weeks for depression, and then it was found out that she had not only depression, but this terrible form of dementia.
[43:27] Doug Groothuis: So I wrote an article about this in Christianity Today, and I got so many responses to it.
[43:36] Doug Groothuis: And three different publishers asked me to write a book on it, and at first I really didn't want to, But then I thought I needed to, not really for myself, although it did, I guess, help me a little bit to put it into words, but to help other people who are struggling through various types of loss.
[43:56] Doug Groothuis: And Becky passed away in July of 2018, and I am very happily remarried to Kathleen.
[44:07] Doug Groothuis: Ecclesiastes says there's a time to mourn and a time to dance, and it's more the time of dancing, although not maybe literally, since I'm too clumsy, but it's more of a happy time now.
[44:20] Doug Groothuis: But the book is in the category of what's called a lament, and you find laments in Scripture.
[44:27] Doug Groothuis: We've got a whole book called the Book of Lamentations by Jeremiah, and we find psalms of lament, like Psalm 39, 88, 90, and so on.
[44:36] Doug Groothuis: And a lament is basically a cry of the heart before God over a distressing situation.
[44:44] Doug Groothuis: And laments involve sadness, often uncertainty, sometimes anger, pleading.
[44:52] Doug Groothuis: Sometimes the Psalms will say things like, How long, O Lord?
[44:56] Doug Groothuis: How long must we wait for redemption and restoration?
[45:00] Doug Groothuis: There are probably about 60 psalms of lament out of the 150 psalms and they have different forms.
[45:07] Doug Groothuis: Two of them actually, psalm 39 and psalm 88, don't resolve into thanksgiving or praise, uh they.
[45:15] Doug Groothuis: They leave a kind of open-ended, which I'm glad for, because when you're really suffering through a terrible loss, you can't always tie it all together, put a bow around it.
[45:28] Doug Groothuis: So I basically talk about different dimensions of lament.
[45:37] Doug Groothuis: I spent a whole chapter looking at Psalm 90, which is a very profound psalm of lament.
[45:44] Doug Groothuis: It's the only psalm of Moses that we have in the Psalter.
[45:49] Doug Groothuis: And so I try to look at the gritty, difficult aspects of life, life under the sun, as Ecclesiastes puts it, where we have some really terrible disappointments, and we don't understand in many ways what the purpose of this suffering is.
[46:08] Doug Groothuis: But as a Christian philosopher and apologist, I believe that the Christian view of life is true and meaningful, and I have a good basis for that.
[46:20] Doug Groothuis: I have a big book called Christian Apologetics, 752 pages.
[46:24] Doug Groothuis: And there's a second edition coming out in March, and that'll be about 1,000 pages.
[46:30] Doug Groothuis: So I thought the first one was too thin, just a comic book, so I wanted to strengthen it a little bit.
[46:37] Doug Groothuis: So let me tell you one episode where Becky and I were going out to eat.
[46:42] Doug Groothuis: This was when we could still go out and do some things.
[46:52] Doug Groothuis: She had written two books and edited an academic book, edited all my books and made me a better thinker, better writer, better person.
[47:00] Doug Groothuis: And I said, I know, Becky, it's horrible, but one day we'll be in the new heavens and the new earth and there'll be none of these problems.
[47:09] Doug Groothuis: And she looked at me and said, but Doug, is it really true?
[47:11] Doug Groothuis: Now, Becky had been a follower of Christ ever since she could remember, but dementia does horrible things to your spirit, to your brain.
[47:22] Doug Groothuis: And I said, Becky, do you remember that big apologetics book that you edited?
[47:28] Doug Groothuis: And I said, I assure you that Christianity is true.
[47:31] Doug Groothuis: You read that, and we know that Christianity is true.
[47:35] Doug Groothuis: So we've got to go through a lot of suffering, but the end will be good.
[47:46] Doug Groothuis: It's a horrible thing to be a brilliant person and literally lose your mind.
[47:56] Doug Groothuis: So it's a pretty raw book, but there's always hope, and there's lots of Scripture, because so much of Scripture relates to suffering and grief and difficulty, but always in the larger context of hope.
[48:10] Doug Groothuis: And as Paul says, this hope does not disappoint us.
[48:14] Doug Groothuis: A lot of our hopes disappoint us in things like politics, sports, relationships.
[48:24] Doug Groothuis: But the hope of the Gospel does, because Christ did die, was raised, is seated at the right hand of the Father, and He will come again.
[48:34] Doug Groothuis: And so we have hope in the midst of our struggles and suffering.
[48:40] Kim Monson: So, Doug, as you're speaking about this and Christian apologetics, I think that is another show just in that.
[48:52] Kim Monson: But in my walk of the Christian faith as a Christian, I come to the determination that Christ took on everything that we could ever feel.
[49:06] Kim Monson: So, for example, he lost everything.
[49:10] Kim Monson: He could understand from a physical standpoint, physical infirmities, because he was beaten and he was, you know, the spirit was put into him.
[49:23] Kim Monson: But I think one of the biggest things was, is losing someone that he loved.
[49:29] Kim Monson: I cannot imagine what was going through his mind when he looked at Mary, when he was on the cross.
[49:35] Kim Monson: He knew that it was going to be okay, but that had to break his heart to see how she was suffering because she loved him so much.
[49:49] Doug Groothuis: And Jesus suffered the ultimate desolation, really, when he said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
[50:03] Doug Groothuis: And ultimately, God did not forsake him, because the Son perfectly obeyed the Father, and Hebrews tells us that for the joy set before him, he endured the shame and the scorn of the cross.
[50:16] Doug Groothuis: But you're right that Jesus experienced the most profound, most intense suffering that could be imagined in every way, physically, relationally, spiritually.
[50:32] Doug Groothuis: He did that not just as a martyr, but as a Savior and as Lord.
[50:38] Doug Groothuis: And just as he had said, he rose again from the dead and commissioned his followers to take the gospel to the whole world.
[50:51] Doug Groothuis: So we find in the death of Christ that death does not have the final word.
[50:56] Doug Groothuis: Because he was disarming the principalities and powers, he was canceling the debt of legal indebtedness we had to God.
[51:04] Doug Groothuis: He did everything necessary, everything we need for being redeemed, being adopted as God's children, being justified.
[51:15] Doug Groothuis: And Christianity is the ultimate realistic religion, because it doesn't sugarcoat anything.
[51:30] Doug Groothuis: And sin, if it's not atoned for, leads to punishment and hell.
[51:34] Doug Groothuis: But there is hope, and that hope is through Jesus Christ.
[51:40] Doug Groothuis: So when I was there when Becky died, I knew that her body stopped working.
[51:55] Doug Groothuis: It was that she left, because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
[52:03] Doug Groothuis: So on one level, you know, we talked about context earlier.
[52:06] Doug Groothuis: On one level, you could say, well, this human body is no longer breathing, there's no heartbeat, this person has died, that's it.
[52:14] Doug Groothuis: But the larger framework is the truth of Scripture, the truth of reality, that we go to be with the Lord when we die, and eventually we'll be, if we're followers of Christ, we'll be resurrected into a new life, a new heavens and a new earth, directly with God and all the redeemed, and there will be no curse and no tears and so on.
[52:38] Doug Groothuis: So when you put it in the ultimate context of what God has revealed to us, the objective truth, then you can say with Paul, death, where's your victory?
[52:54] Doug Groothuis: It still hurts, but that hurt is temporary because this hope does not disappoint us.
[52:59] Doug Groothuis: Other hopes do disappoint us, but the hope of the gospel does not disappoint us.
[53:05] Kim Monson: Groteis, we've got about three minutes left, and yes, there is this hope.
[53:10] Kim Monson: What is the message that you would send to our listeners as we're coming into Thanksgiving?
[53:18] Kim Monson: We're in Thanksgiving week, our broadcast.
[53:20] Kim Monson: With all this kind of oppression that we are seeing around COVID-19 and the reaction to that, what would be the message you want to give to our listeners?
[53:36] Doug Groothuis: We should be thankful- and we should be humble just as creatures, that any good thing we have has been given to us by god, from the father of lights in whom there's no shadow of turning.
[53:50] Doug Groothuis: And god is the the owner of the world, and he's made us in his image and given us all things to enjoy.
[53:58] Doug Groothuis: But then, as creatures who are fallen, who are sinful, we can be thankful that God did not leave us in our distressed condition, but the Word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth, and the Son has made the Father known.
[54:20] Doug Groothuis: And John also says that those who believed in him and received him, he gave the right to become children of God.
[54:28] Doug Groothuis: So if we are followers of Christ, we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, we've reached out to Christ through faith, not by works, lest anyone boast, then we have so much to be grateful for.
[54:41] Doug Groothuis: That we are justified, we are put right with God, we're adopted as God's children, we're part of the body of Christ, we're part of the living temple of Christ, we're united with Christ.
[54:53] Doug Groothuis: and in all things, one way or the other, God works together for the good because he has put the love of God into our hearts.
[55:03] Doug Groothuis: So there's so much to be thankful for, and sometimes we're weighed down by our disappointments and relational breakdowns and fears and bad health, but ultimately we have so much to be grateful for.
[55:20] Doug Groothuis: The last 20 years has been a lot of study of happiness, what makes people happy.
[55:28] Doug Groothuis: So people advise things like have a gratitude journal or spend some time every day just being thankful.
[55:36] Doug Groothuis: Well, that's great, but you want to be thankful to someone.
[55:45] Doug Groothuis: So it's not just I'm happy about X, Y, and Z, but I am grateful to Him for what He has given me.
[55:51] Doug Groothuis: And moreover, what he will give all of his children, which is resurrected bodies, a new heavens, a new earth, direct communion with God and all the redeemed people.
[56:05] Doug Groothuis: And then as Americans, we can be really grateful for the American system and all the blessings America has had, not to lull us into complacency, but just give us a foundation of gratitude from which we can seek a better, more perfect union.
[56:22] Kim Monson: That's great thoughts here as we're in Thanksgiving week.
[56:26] Kim Monson: Douglas Groteis, thank you so much.
[56:29] Kim Monson: This has been a great conversation.
[56:32] Kim Monson: And our quote for today is, and I talked to Dr.
[56:36] Kim Monson: Grothuis about this, and this was also what is one of my father's favorite quotes.
[56:41] Kim Monson: And it is John 14, 16, where Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life.
[56:45] Kim Monson: No one comes to the Father except through me.
[56:48] Kim Monson: And so, my friends today, be grateful, read great books, think good thoughts, listen to beautiful music, communicate and listen well, live honestly and authentically, strive for high ideals, and like Superman, stand for truth, justice, and the American way.
[57:03] Kim Monson: God bless you, and God bless America.